Dilemma. Low endocrine impact cycle?

[Diesel0022]

Give this thread a read about AA : forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=119490141


Also, about the Whey/Casein, glad to see someone else who is interested in the subject:

1: Soop, Mattias, et al. "Coingestion of Whey Protein and Casein in a Mixed Meal: Demonstration of a More Sustained Anabolic Effect of Casein." American Journal of Physiology (2012): n. pag. Print.
2: Shah NP. Effects of milk-derived bioactives: An Overview. Br J Nutr (2000) 84 (Suppl1): S3-S10.
3: Phillips, SM. Eating the Right Proteins to Support Muscle Mass with Exercise. Presentation at the 4th International Whey Conference, 2005.
4: McDonald, Lyle. The Protein Book. N.p.: n.p., n.d. Web.
5: Paul, George L. "The Rationale for Consuming Protein Blends in Sports Nutrition." Journal of the American College of Nutrition 28.4 (2009): 464S-72S. Web.
6: Butteiger, D. N., M. Cope, P. Liu, R. Mukherjea, E. Volpi, B. B. Rasmussen, and E. S. Krul. "A Soy, Whey and Caseinate Blend Extends Postprandial Skeletal Muscle Protein Synthesis in Rats." Clinical Nutrition 32.4 (2013): 585-91. Web.
7: Reidy, P. T., et al. "Protein Blend Ingestion following Resistance Exercise Promotes Human Muscle Protein Synthesis." The Journal of Nutrition 143.4 (2013): 410-16. Web.
8: Reidy, Paul, et al. "Effect of Protein Blend vs Whey Protein Ingestion on Muscle Protein Synthesis following Resistance Exercise." The FASEB Journal (2012): n. pag. Web.
9: Churchward-Venne, Tyler A., Nicholas A. Burd, and Stuart M. Phillips. "Nutritional Regulation of Muscle Protein Synthesis with Resistance Exercise: Strategies to Enhance Anabolism." Nutr Metab 9.40 (2012): n. pag. Web.
10: Salehi, Albert, Ulrika Gunnerud, Sarheed J. Muhammed, Elin Ostman, Jens J. Holst, Inger Bjorck, and Patrik Rorsman. "The Insulinogenic Effect of Whey Protein Is Partially Mediated by a Direct Effect of Amino Acids and GIP on B-cells." Nutr Metab (London) 9.48 (2012): n. pag. Web.
11: Claessens, Mandy, Wim H. M. Saris, and Marleen A. Van Baak. "Glucagon and Insulin Responses after Ingestion of Different Amounts of Intact and Hydrolysed Proteins."British Journal of Nutrition 100.01 (2008): n. pag. Print.
12: Kerksick, Chad M., Christopher J. Rasmussen, Stacy L. Lancaster, Bharat Magu, Penney Smith, Charles Melton, Michael Greenwood, Anthony L. Almada, Conrad P. Earnest, and Richard B. Kreider. "The Effects of Protein and Amino Acid Supplementation on Performance and Training Adaptations During Ten Weeks of Resistance Training."The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 20.3 (2006): 643-53. Print.
13: Walker, T. B., J. Smith, M. Herrera, B. Lebeque, A. Pinchak, and J. Fischer. "The Influence of 8 Weeks of Whey-protein and Leucine Supplementation on Physical and Cognitive Performance." Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 20.5 (2010): 409-17. Web.
14: Casperson, S. L., M. Sheffield-Moore, S. J. Hewlings, and D. Paddon-Jones. "Leucine Supplementation Chronically Improves Muscle Protein Synthesis in Older Adults Consuming the RDA for Protein." Clinical Nutrition 31.4 (2012): 512-19. Web.
15: Rieu, I, et al. "Leucine Supplementation Improves Muscle Protein Synthesis in Elderly Men Independently of Hyperaminoacidaemia." The Journal of Physiology 575.1 (2006): 305-15. Print.
16: Norton, L. E., G. J. Wilson, D. K. Layman, C. J. Moulton, and P. J. Garlick. "Leucine Content of Dietary Proteins Is a Determinant of Postprandial Skeletal Muscle Protein Synthesis in Adult Rats." Nutrition & Metabolism 9.1 (2012): 67. Web.
17: Koopman, R, et al. "Combined Ingestion of Protein and Free Leucine with Carbohydrate Increases Postexercise Muscle Protein Synthesis in Vivo in Male Subjects." AJP: Endocrinology and Metabolism 288.4 (2004): E645-653. Web.
18: Lacroix M, Bos C, Leonil J, et al. "Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement." Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1070-1079.
19: Boirie, Yves, et al. "Slow and Fast Dietary Proteins Differently Modulate Postprandial Protein Accretion." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 94.26 (1997): 14930-4935. Web.
20: Reitelseder, Soren, et al. "Whey and Casein Labeled with L-[1-13C]leucine and Muscle Protein Synthesis: Effect of Resistance Exercise and Protein Ingestion." American Journal of Physiology Endocrinology and Metabolism 300 (2011): n. pag. Web.
21: Wilkinson, S. B., et al. "Consumption of Fluid Skim Milk Promotes Greater Muscle Protein Accretion after Resistance Exercise than Does Consumption of an Isonitrogenous and Isoenergetic Soyprotein Beverage." Am J Clin Nutr 85.4 (2007): 1031-040. Web.
22: Roy, Brian D. "Milk: The New Sports Drink? A Review." Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 5.1 (2008): 15. Print.
23: Philips, S. M., J. W. Hartman, and S. B. Wilkinson. "Dietary Protein to Support Anabolism with Resistance Exercise in Young Men." J Am Coll Nutr 24.2 (2005): 134S-39S. Print.
24: "New PepForm Leucine Peptides Improves Utilization of L-Leucine; PepForm to Be Evaluated in Upcoming Mt. Everest Trek." About.

 

[SAD]

I'm still new to the moderating thing... I think I accidentally banned pericles... i mean Dr. Joojitsoo...

So let's get on with our lives.

SAD whats the purpose of the IGF besides lightening up the wallet?

Hyperplasia. Not sure 9 months is enough time to really mature the new muscle, but it was just a thought.

 

[SAD]

CBS, legit HGH is expensive, yes. But for the same reason I mentioned IGF, it is not useless for a short blast. Hyperplasia is very real but very hard to "see". You won't notice the benefits until months and months and months after you've stopped taking the hgh/igf, so it's hard to know and believe, but the science is very much conclusive.

As for the beast/recycle combo, I have seen many people respond very well to them. One is designed as a natural test booster, and the other as a pct after a prohormone cycle. While I agree that 99.9% of herbal test boosters are junk, I can't deny what I've seen from those that have stacked these two together. Even if it's a pronounced placebo effect, it's still an effect.

Thanks for your thoughts. I hope I explained my rationale for mentioning hgh/igf.

 

[mands]

ANGRY, here's what we know.

BEAST and ReCycle stack has worked well for you, along with the peptides. So we know that, and how you react to each. My advice would be to add A-Acid into the stack and see if you notice any benefits.

Growth and/or IGF could be an option, although CERTAINLY not cheap. Potentially a thought for a blast this summer, if the funds allow. Anybody (sans mr. jitsu) have any thoughts on that?

SAD,

Is IGF-1 considered a ban substance or not?

I know it's not much, but adding a Casein before bed time helps me a lot. I would say he could put on a 2-3 pounds in a month just adding that. Just to keep from going catabolic over night.

mands

 

[SAD]

I'm sure it is (pretty much everything is banned in the USAPL, including excessive caffeine), but it will not affect his endocrine system and he will not be competing while on IGF/HGH if he decides to go that route. I'm not advocating it just yet. Just more food for thought.

As for his supplementation, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's already taking casein pre-bed. ANGRY, would you list your current supplement regimen please?

 

[Diesel0022]

SAD,

Is IGF-1 considered a ban substance or not?

I know it's not much, but adding a Casein before bed time helps me a lot. I would say he could put on a 2-3 pounds in a month just adding that. Just to keep from going catabolic over night.

mands

You don't go catabolic over night. This has been disproved time and time again.

Bro-science at its finest.

 

[mands]

You don't go catabolic over night. This has been disproved time and time again.

Bro-science at its finest.

I understand what you are saying a little. Try to understand what I'm saying, food helps or Casein for this matter would help him to be more anabolic and help him recover faster from catabolism process.

I know you know how anabolism works. First you have the breakdown of molecules into several smaller ones. Then the smaller ones basically build together and this is when the muscles grow. blah blah blah

I understand the process bro! I guess I'll have to explain myself in every post because I haven't established myself on this board.

Back to the point. As you know(I assume), your body at rest starts to rebuild itself and becomes more anabolic with rest. If you do not get this proper rest and do not feed it with food while resting or let's say protien it can stay in a catabolic state and then your body tries to get energy from somewere else for example your muscles. This is not good for people like us who train hard and work hard. Therfore night time is a good place for this to happen.

Point is Casein will help him tremendously according to all my bro-science.

PS. Catabolism can happen anytime of the day and at night bro.

mands

 

[IronSoul]

You don't go catabolic over night. This has been disproved time and time again.

Bro-science at its finest.

I wasn't aware of this. I guess there are a lot of factors that come Into play here. But for the general person on top of their macros/meals, theirs no catabolism overnight?

The possibility is there for those that may have fasted a few hours before bed or have not eaten in a while though right?

You care to elaborate bro, always interested in what you have to say about topics like this. Thanks diesel

 

[mands]

I'm sure it is (pretty much everything is banned in the USAPL, including excessive caffeine), but it will not affect his endocrine system and he will not be competing while on IGF/HGH if he decides to go that route. I'm not advocating it just yet. Just more food for thought.

As for his supplementation, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's already taking casein pre-bed. ANGRY, would you list your current supplement regimen please?

As far as cost I know IGF-1 is a lot cheaper than HGH.

mands

 

[Diesel0022]

I understand what you are saying a little. Try to understand what I'm saying, food helps or Casein for this matter would help him to be more anabolic and help him recover faster from catabolism process.

I know you know how anabolism works. First you have the breakdown of molecules into several smaller ones. Then the smaller ones basically build together and this is when the muscles grow. blah blah blah

I understand the process bro! I guess I'll have to explain myself in every post because I haven't established myself on this board.

Back to the point. As you know(I assume), your body at rest starts to rebuild itself and becomes more anabolic with rest. If you do not get this proper rest and do not feed it with food while resting or let's say protien it can stay in a catabolic state and then your body tries to get energy from somewere else for example your muscles. This is not good for people like us who train hard and work hard. Therfore night time is a good place for this to happen.

Point is Casein will help him tremendously according to all my bro-science.

PS. Catabolism can happen anytime of the day and at night bro.

mands

This is incorrect. Taking into account digestibility, post absorptive overlap and the inanely large amino acid pool we consume over the course of the day, it would take days on end of minimal macro nutrients to reach a complete catabolic state.

If you are referring to acute catabolism, that is an ongoing physiological function that we cannot affect from endogenous or exogenous sources.

I wasn't aware of this. I guess there are a lot of factors that come Into play here. But for the general person on top of their macros/meals, theirs no catabolism overnight?

The possibility is there for those that may have fasted a few hours before bed or have not eaten in a while though right?

You care to elaborate bro, always interested in what you have to say about topics like this. Thanks diesel

Above, if I didn't answer all of your questions feel free to reiterate.

 

[mands]

This is incorrect. Taking into account digestibility, post absorptive overlap and the inanely large amino acid pool we consume over the course of the day, it would take days on end of minimal macro nutrients to reach a complete catabolic state.

If you are referring to acute catabolism, that is an ongoing physiological function that we cannot affect from endogenous or exogenous sources.



Above, if I didn't answer all of your questions feel free to reiterate.

Where did I state catabolic state? I looked and I did say catabolic overnight. Poor choice on my part.

So what is the definition of catabolism?

Are you saying catabolism does not happen at all? So if we don't add exogenous sources such as food it won't set us into catabolism or becoming catabolic? Are you saying introducing exogenous AAS or insulin cannot aid in or reverse catabolism?

Very interesting!

mands

 

[Diesel0022]

Where did I state catabolic state? I looked and I did say catabolic overnight. Poor choice on my part.

So what is the definition of catabolism?

Are you saying catabolism does not happen at all? So if we don't add exogenous sources such as food it won't set us into catabolism or becoming catabolic? Are you saying introducing exogenous AAS or insulin cannot aid in or reverse catabolism?

Very interesting!

mands

You seem to jumping subjects, or there was a slight miscommunication between us.

Anabolism and catabolism are ongoing processes, at an acute level. Those we cannot control.

The "catabolic state" that most purport is in regards to "losing" extreme amounts of muscle overnight, and the common myth to combat this is to ingest casein [a slow digesting protein] pre-bed. Fact of the matter is, as long as you are eating meals everyday, you are in an absorptive/postprandial state, negating any existential possibility of reaching the dreaded/mythological "catabolic state"

There is an abundance of data proving that nutrient timing is essentially useless. IIFYM