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Democratic socialism... Finally some answers

jhotsauce7

jhotsauce7

TID Board Of Directors
Jan 18, 2011
2,805
684
I think single payer health care can work, but it requires rationing of services. I'm not adamantly opposed to rationing, I'm just uncomfortable with someone rationing care for someone else rather than for just themselves.

We ration all the time. I go to the restaurant, and want the prime rib, but it costs $35, so I order the salmon instead, since it costs only $17. I rationed myself and made a conscious consumer choice, since I was paying for it. The next time may be my birthday and I may choose to treat myself with the prime rib.

When you have single payer health care, you go to the doctor, and he says you need tests #1 , #2 , and #3 . I have no incentive to ask whether I need them, what they cost, or anything else. The doc has no incentive not to give you all three. You're not paying, he's not paying, some mysterious entity out there (the gov't is paying).

some guy with the green shades in a cubicle in Wash. DC is looking at a spreadsheet, and decides the gov't can save money by only give tests #1 and #3 under these circumstances. I don't know any better, because I don't ask, and it won't matter anyways because it won't be available. The doc might care, but he's on salary and quite frankly doesn't give a shit, because there's line of 500 people behind me. So some guy in Wash DC will be deciding the standard of care, and nobody in the delivery system or receipt of health care will have much of a say.

When consumers don't have a say, quality and service go down, and costs go up. That's economics....
Sounds a bit like the VA hospitals I hear about from friends...
 
JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
Put me in the "hell no" category for things like single payer healthcare and "democratic" socialism.

You cannot trust politicians with your money. Governments don't do a very good job with money. We've already been told recently that a govt takeover of 16% of the economy would save us $2500 a year on average, and that we could keep our doctor and our plan if we liked them. We all know how that turned out...

As someone has said, just look to the VA.

If it really works well in other countries, great. I personally do not want to be like Sweden or other European countries (most of whom are at or near bankruptcy), although that is certainly where we have been headed. But why is it that the wealthier people from these countries with "free" healthcare so often come to places like Houston and LA for more complicated treatments and procedures?

And the problem with a study that proclaims by popular vote that this or that nation is the "happiest" on earth is that happiness means many different things to many different people. The whole "collectivism" mentality a huge problem with socialism/communism in and of itself - we are (or should be) a nation of individuals. What you and I each define as happiness are likely to be very different.

Some people define happiness as a family of 4 or more living off 40k of govt entitlements - "free" (or near-free) housing, food, utilities, cash allowances, etc. Or a single person working 30 hours a week in a low-stress, low-responsibility job, living in a tiny 1 bedroom apartment, and eating little more than ramen noodles, canned tuna, and oatmeal 3 times a day.

I have largely defined happiness through most of my adult life by getting up early at least 5 days a week, putting on a nice suit, and taking charge of whatever high-stress situation has been making me a very good (if not always certain) living. Taking ownership. Assuming responsibility. Making wheels and deals turn. Helping others improve their personal and business financial situations. Starting early. Staying late. Building relationships and enjoying camaraderie. Expensive business lunches and dinners. Accumulating plenty of money to have a secure retirement without the need for govt money. Being able to afford to do whatever I want on the weekends, buy whatever I want, and live the kind of lifestyle I dreamed about living as a lower middle class kid.

Late nights drinking a cocktail or 2 while talking business with peers or trying to wine and dine a new client. Hustling chicks with sometimes exaggerated tales of my business prowess while still wearing my somewhat wrinkled suit as I hear it's last call and try to get her to come to my rather nice HOUSE that I own free and clear...

You can keep your $40-80k a year 35 hour a week govt jobs with 2 months vacation a year - I'll have all the vacation time I need when I'm dead.

 
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MorganKane

MorganKane

VIP Member
Nov 12, 2012
1,721
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im not laughing at your joke.

Happy and and prosperous in reference to a small or multiple small countries tucked in to non threatening geography (at this time)are not not analogous to America. Having traveled through over 38 countries including your references I completely disagree with your assertions and highly encourage you to move to one of these wonderous countries so you can participate in the Socialism you are advocating for. I have and my friends their don't share your outlook.

As for having it here, only in small spurts while some liberal tool is in office only to be reversed promptly under competent constitutional leadership.

Lived in one of them for 23 years so I would say I know it pretty well.
I still have family in multiple of those countries and they say it works really well.

So are you saying those countries does not have a democratic socialistic system that works well?
That was what I was responding too. Post up something that disputes it, I would like to read it.

Where did i say I advocated for it?

I think you seeing shit thats not there.
 
RAIDEN

RAIDEN

VIP Member
Feb 22, 2012
4,385
1,345
Put me in the "hell no" category for things like single payer healthcare and "democratic" socialism.

You cannot trust politicians with your money. Governments don't do a very good job with money. We've already been told recently that a govt takeover of 16% of the economy would save us $2500 a year on average, and that we could keep our doctor and our plan if we liked them. We all know how that turned out...

As someone has said, just look to the VA.

If it really works well in other countries, great. I personally do not want to be like Sweden or other European countries (most of whom are at or near bankruptcy), although that is certainly where we have been headed. But why is it that the wealthier people from these countries with "free" healthcare so often come to places like Houston and LA for more complicated treatments and procedures?

And the problem with a study that proclaims by popular vote that this or that nation is the "happiest" on earth is that happiness means many different things to many different people. The whole "collectivism" mentality a huge problem with socialism/communism in and of itself - we are (or should be) a nation of individuals. What you and I each define as happiness are likely to be very different.

Some people define happiness as a family of 4 or more living off 40k of govt entitlements - "free" (or near-free) housing, food, utilities, cash allowances, etc. Or a single person working 30 hours a week in a low-stress, low-responsibility job, living in a tiny 1 bedroom apartment, and eating little more than ramen noodles, canned tuna, and oatmeal 3 times a day.

I have largely defined happiness through most of my adult life by getting up early at least 5 days a week, putting on a nice suit, and taking charge of whatever high-stress situation has been making me a very good (if not always certain) living. Taking ownership. Assuming responsibility. Making wheels and deals turn. Helping others improve their personal and business financial situations. Starting early. Staying late. Building relationships and enjoying camaraderie. Expensive business lunches and dinners. Accumulating plenty of money to have a secure retirement without the need for govt money. Being able to afford to do whatever I want on the weekends, buy whatever I want, and live the kind of lifestyle I dreamed about living as a lower middle class kid.

Late nights drinking a cocktail or 2 while talking business with peers or trying to wine and dine a new client. Hustling chicks with sometimes exaggerated tales of my business prowess while still wearing my somewhat wrinkled suit as I hear it's last call and try to get her to come to my rather nice HOUSE that I own free and clear...

You can keep your $40-80k a year 35 hour a week govt jobs with 2 months vacation a year - I'll have all the vacation time I need when I'm dead.


While you have all the perks and great benefits from doing what you do and loving all the things you mentioned, me as a blue collar worker being a welder the majority of my working career and an electrician the last 3 years, have never felt a sense of entitlement or feel I should have a share of your pie/earnings or money just because you have more. You probably have better healthcare, insurance, retirement /pension and everything else I never will, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I'm not fine with is some politician and people who thinks the playing field should be even or leveled. I have the same 24 hours in a day that you have, hell we all do. I have the same opportunities you do, so does everyone else. Your probably thinking what's my point by now lol. My point is there is no greater land in the world, of opportunities than the U.S.A. but for some reason people think it's not good enough and think socialism is a better way. ( drops mic )
 
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JR Ewing

JR Ewing

MuscleHead
Nov 9, 2012
1,329
420
While you have all the perks and great benefits from doing what you do and loving all the things you mentioned, me as a blue collar worker being a welder the majority of my working career and an electrician the last 3 years, have never felt a sense of entitlement or feel I should have a share of your pie/earnings or money just because you have more. You probably have better healthcare, insurance, retirement /pension and everything else I never will, and I'm perfectly fine with that. What I'm not fine with is some politician and people who thinks the playing field should be even or leveled. I have the same 24 hours in a day that you have, hell we all do. I have the same opportunities you do, so does everyone else. Your probably thinking what's my point by now lol. My point is there is no greater land in the world, of opportunities than the U.S.A. but for some reason people think it's not good enough and think socialism is a better way. ( drops mic )

I have nothing but respect and admiration for anyone who makes an honest living, and I particularly respect and admire blue collar workers who bust their asses rain, shine, snow, heat, whatever. My father, grandfathers, many other relatives, and many of their friends and my friends as well have worked in construction, oil fields, rigs, refineries, chemical plants, etc. Welders, electricians, machinists, iron workers, tool pushers, crane operators, etc, etc. And many of them retired with upper 6 or lower 7 figures in their 401ks if they were smart.

I spent the first few years of my adult life on my feet working on concrete floors, and even out in the weather a bit as I struggled to get a college degree and support myself. Plus several years in the military. And I had my share of ups and downs between 25-35 - there were occasions when I didn't know when or where my next dollar would come from. But I just kept at it, and tried to learn from mistakes. I still have dreams about being broke or going broke again, and it remains one of my biggest fears many years later. But I've also learned that fear is good as long as it's controlled.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

Senior Moderators
Staff Member
Dec 25, 2010
6,313
5,000
Another thing about democratic socialism is the term itself. It's almost a contradiction in terms.

Democratic presumes democracy or that individuals have a voice in how they will live their lives. Having choices means that some people will make good choices and some will make bad choices, resulting in disparity of results.

Socialism operates to "fix" those disparities by redistributing money from those who have to those that do not have. In order to redistribute less, they would rather regulate you to prevent you from doing destructive things and forcing you to do constructive things. Problem is we don't agree on what those things are. For example, some mayors in NY think you shouldn't be allowed to buy a soft drink that is larger than 16oz (maybe its' 20oz, I can't remember). They also don't want you eating transfats at restaurants. After all, others are having to pay for it.

what's next, monitoring your sleep to ensure you're getting at least 7 hours. Interrogating you to determine whether you're eating too much red meat? Putting too much butter on your bread? using too much salt on your food? why not? If we're socializing the costs of life, we now are interested in everyone else's business and liberty goes right down the toilet.

That seems like the opposite of what our founding fathers had in mind.
 
graniteman

graniteman

MuscleHead
Dec 31, 2011
6,133
1,556
Educate yourself before you post.
The most prosperous and happy countries in the world is democratic socialists.

Well, I'm, as usual laughing at your ridiculous posts. Sometimes I think you post just for a reaction , then I remember... (shhh the whole , I'm a mouthful of mangled teeth brit!!)

Let's hear these great democratic socialist countries that are SOOO GREAT you are NOT living there... DOOOOH!! Either you're dirt poor and can't move there, really dumb and stay in a terrible Country like this One or you're posting for attention again.

So let's hear how great Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, ...etc are. After that let's google some social posts and compare your ''thoughts'' vs the people that actually live there.
 
graniteman

graniteman

MuscleHead
Dec 31, 2011
6,133
1,556
Lived in one of them for 23 years so I would say I know it pretty well.
I still have family in multiple of those countries and they say it works really well.

So are you saying those countries does not have a democratic socialistic system that works well?
That was what I was responding too. Post up something that disputes it, I would like to read it.

Where did i say I advocated for it?
I think you seeing shit thats not there.

See, he be trollin... You off your meds again MK?


troll+spray.jpg
 
Halo

Halo

MuscleHead
Jul 5, 2011
3,666
487
Put me in the "hell no" category for things like single payer healthcare and "democratic" socialism.

You cannot trust politicians with your money. Governments don't do a very good job with money. We've already been told recently that a govt takeover of 16% of the economy would save us $2500 a year on average, and that we could keep our doctor and our plan if we liked them. We all know how that turned out...

As someone has said, just look to the VA.

If it really works well in other countries, great. I personally do not want to be like Sweden or other European countries (most of whom are at or near bankruptcy), although that is certainly where we have been headed. But why is it that the wealthier people from these countries with "free" healthcare so often come to places like Houston and LA for more complicated treatments and procedures?

And the problem with a study that proclaims by popular vote that this or that nation is the "happiest" on earth is that happiness means many different things to many different people. The whole "collectivism" mentality a huge problem with socialism/communism in and of itself - we are (or should be) a nation of individuals. What you and I each define as happiness are likely to be very different.

Some people define happiness as a family of 4 or more living off 40k of govt entitlements - "free" (or near-free) housing, food, utilities, cash allowances, etc. Or a single person working 30 hours a week in a low-stress, low-responsibility job, living in a tiny 1 bedroom apartment, and eating little more than ramen noodles, canned tuna, and oatmeal 3 times a day.

I have largely defined happiness through most of my adult life by getting up early at least 5 days a week, putting on a nice suit, and taking charge of whatever high-stress situation has been making me a very good (if not always certain) living. Taking ownership. Assuming responsibility. Making wheels and deals turn. Helping others improve their personal and business financial situations. Starting early. Staying late. Building relationships and enjoying camaraderie. Expensive business lunches and dinners. Accumulating plenty of money to have a secure retirement without the need for govt money. Being able to afford to do whatever I want on the weekends, buy whatever I want, and live the kind of lifestyle I dreamed about living as a lower middle class kid.

Late nights drinking a cocktail or 2 while talking business with peers or trying to wine and dine a new client. Hustling chicks with sometimes exaggerated tales of my business prowess while still wearing my somewhat wrinkled suit as I hear it's last call and try to get her to come to my rather nice HOUSE that I own free and clear...

You can keep your $40-80k a year 35 hour a week govt jobs with 2 months vacation a year - I'll have all the vacation time I need when I'm dead.

100% This!!!!! Well said brother!

Bottom line I don't ever want to be a part of anything where those who don't give more of themselves, those that don't commit more to achievement, those who just don't have skin in the game, get the same shit that those that do. That is exactly what this whole liberal, progressive, socialist, communist, dictatorial bullshit is and those who are awake and know history not only understand this they are prepared to give the full measure of themselves to ensure that crazy bullshit never comes back in any name shape or form.

Lived in one of them for 23 years so I would say I know it pretty well.
I still have family in multiple of those countries and they say it works really well.

So are you saying those countries does not have a democratic socialistic system that works well?
That was what I was responding too. Post up something that disputes it, I would like to read it.

Where did i say I advocated for it?

I think you seeing shit thats not there.

So you've lived in one for 23 years, ok so either you're 23 years old and that is what you know or something else like you are a believer in that and you chose after many life experiences to move to the mythical land of plenty and you found it's lack of real skin in the game of world geopolitics or as mentioned earlier their geographically beneficial spot on the earth that gives them the ability to commit to something where everyone gets a what everyone else has while never having to worry about the big bad world outside.

What I'm saying is socialism breeds mediocrity and I don't think they can hold a candle to the achievements of American Capitalism that has disproportionately improved the lives of billions of people in the shortest amount of time in the history of civilization. While people who live in these small enclaves you refer to are living there in relative freedom with no skin in the game just going through the motions. I'm not down on them or you doing that I'm just saying it's not for me and it's really not for America our exceptionalism will not allow it to happen.

“The issue is freedom versus dictatorship. It is only after men have chosen slavery and dictatorship that they can begin the usual gang warfare of socialized countries—today, it is called pressure-group warfare—over whose gang will rule, who will enslave whom, whose property will be plundered for whose benefit, who will be sacrificed to whose “noble” purpose.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“the penalizing of ability for being ability, the penalizing of success for being success, and the sacrifice of productive genius to the demands of envious mediocrity.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“It took centuries of intellectual, philosophical development to achieve political freedom. It was a long struggle, stretching from Aristotle to John Locke to the Founding Fathers. The system they established was not based on unlimited majority rule, but on its opposite: on individual rights, which were not to be alienated by majority vote or minority plotting. The individual was not left at the mercy of his neighbors or his leaders: the Constitutional system of checks and balances was scientifically devised to protect him from both.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it.”

“The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive.”
--Thomas Sowell Knowledge and Decisions




 
graniteman

graniteman

MuscleHead
Dec 31, 2011
6,133
1,556
100% This!!!!! Well said brother!

Bottom line I don't ever want to be a part of anything where those who don't give more of themselves, those that don't commit more to achievement, those who just don't have skin in the game, get the same shit that those that do. That is exactly what this whole liberal, progressive, socialist, communist, dictatorial bullshit is and those who are awake and know history not only understand this they are prepared to give the full measure of themselves to ensure that crazy bullshit never comes back in any name shape or form.



So you've lived in one for 23 years, ok so either you're 23 years old and that is what you know or something else like you are a believer in that and you chose after many life experiences to move to the mythical land of plenty and you found it's lack of real skin in the game of world geopolitics or as mentioned earlier their geographically beneficial spot on the earth that gives them the ability to commit to something where everyone gets a what everyone else has while never having to worry about the big bad world outside.

What I'm saying is socialism breeds mediocrity and I don't think they can hold a candle to the achievements of American Capitalism that has disproportionately improved the lives of billions of people in the shortest amount of time in the history of civilization. While people who live in these small enclaves you refer to are living there in relative freedom with no skin in the game just going through the motions. I'm not down on them or you doing that I'm just saying it's not for me and it's really not for America our exceptionalism will not allow it to happen.

“The issue is freedom versus dictatorship. It is only after men have chosen slavery and dictatorship that they can begin the usual gang warfare of socialized countries—today, it is called pressure-group warfare—over whose gang will rule, who will enslave whom, whose property will be plundered for whose benefit, who will be sacrificed to whose “noble” purpose.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“the penalizing of ability for being ability, the penalizing of success for being success, and the sacrifice of productive genius to the demands of envious mediocrity.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“It took centuries of intellectual, philosophical development to achieve political freedom. It was a long struggle, stretching from Aristotle to John Locke to the Founding Fathers. The system they established was not based on unlimited majority rule, but on its opposite: on individual rights, which were not to be alienated by majority vote or minority plotting. The individual was not left at the mercy of his neighbors or his leaders: the Constitutional system of checks and balances was scientifically devised to protect him from both.”
Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

“It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it.”

“The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive.”
--Thomas Sowell Knowledge and Decisions





LMAO..Bro, I cannot add or say it better, welcome to the Party!
 
MorganKane

MorganKane

VIP Member
Nov 12, 2012
1,721
1,001
Well, I'm, as usual laughing at your ridiculous posts. Sometimes I think you post just for a reaction , then I remember... (shhh the whole , I'm a mouthful of mangled teeth brit!!)

Let's hear these great democratic socialist countries that are SOOO GREAT you are NOT living there... DOOOOH!! Either you're dirt poor and can't move there, really dumb and stay in a terrible Country like this One or you're posting for attention again.

So let's hear how great Sweden, Germany, Netherlands, ...etc are. After that let's google some social posts and compare your ''thoughts'' vs the people that actually live there.

Go back and read what you posted.
Then read what I wrote.
Now post up a cite that shows you are right.
Democratic socialistic countries are doing very well.
They have not all failed as you claim and you are using Venezuela as your example.

My choice of where to live has nothing to do with this?
I think you read way too much into shit thats not there.
You got a great imagination but very few facts.

I dont have to google to get the thoughts of people living there.
I just have to pick up the phone and ask. You should read the studies and surveys instead of going by you imagination.
 
MorganKane

MorganKane

VIP Member
Nov 12, 2012
1,721
1,001
So you've lived in one for 23 years, ok so either you're 23 years old and that is what you know or something else like you are a believer in that and you chose after many life experiences to move to the mythical land of plenty and you found it's lack of real skin in the game of world geopolitics or as mentioned earlier their geographically beneficial spot on the earth that gives them the ability to commit to something where everyone gets a what everyone else has while never having to worry about the big bad world outside.

What I'm saying is socialism breeds mediocrity and I don't think they can hold a candle to the achievements of American Capitalism that has disproportionately improved the lives of billions of people in the shortest amount of time in the history of civilization. While people who live in these small enclaves you refer to are living there in relative freedom with no skin in the game just going through the motions. I'm not down on them or you doing that I'm just saying it's not for me and it's really not for America our exceptionalism will not allow it to happen.

I lived here longer then I lived there.
I have no idea what kind of rant your on no skin in the game.
Nor do I understand why you think this is about USA being better.

The statement was how socialism has failed everywhere.
Thats simply not true. What Sanders is referring too is working well in other countries.
 
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