Cutting with EC "Y" My first experiences.

[macgyver]

First off, I wanted to thank SHINE for an article he posted on EC "Y".

It inspired me to try it on my next cut. That started 5 weeks ago.

Now I have had a ton of experience cutting on EC. In fact I have probably spent over a year of my life on it (combining all the times I have taken it).

I also want to give the background that I am very dialed in at tracking and planning cals etc. I do NOT use a shot gun approach and EVERYTHING is weighed and portioned, so I know my intake is accurate. (have spent over two years planning and tracking 100% of my intake...so I am familiar with how to do it right).


OK...now that that is out of the way.....here is my experience.

5 weeks ago 209
Today 189.

What...20lbs in 5 weeks....no way. Well you are right. Yea.....4# a week sounds excessive....but it is not reflective of the true fat loss. Coming off the surplus I had been on there was a 10lb loss in the first week. This is mostly water retention from eating 500g of carbs (on my high carb days) and 300+ as my "low" days. Heck, cutting now, I dont even hit 300g on my "high" days and my "low" is only 180.

I have figured the fat loss is at 2lbs a week. That is right at the border of coming off too fast. I really only wanted 1.5lb/week, which I have always cut at successfully.

This got me thinking why am I losing so fast?. I am at 2400 cal. So even if I raised up to 2700-2800 (my maint) that still is only .75lbs per week less loss. To lose 2 lbs a week, I would have to calculate out that my maint is 3400cal.

2lbs fat loss per week = 7000 cal / 7 days in a week = 1000 cal a day deficit. Add this to my current intake 2400 cal and you get 3400 for maint.


Now get this.....THERE IS NO WAY 3400 cal is my maint. Hell I just got off bulking at 3300 cal. So what is up?.....

Only two things are different:

I am doing 2- 20min HITT rowing sessions per week. (guessing they are 250-300 cal per session MAX) That only makes up 500-600 cal/ week. 1/7 of a lb

The other is EC Y (the "Y" being new to the party)

Note: AGAIN I am not suggesting anyone do this. There are warnings all over the internet NOT to combine Yohimine HCL and Ephedrine. It can be EXTREMELY dangerous.....excessive heart rate and blood pressure..etc.

With that said, I have a ton of familiarity with EC. With that experience I introduced Yohimbine HCL VERY slowly and monitored heart rate and BP.

AGAIN...be careful. The dose of Yohimbine is VERY SMALL....and NOT the typical dose you would take when taking it solo. (started at 5mg/ day split in two and have worked up to 7.5mg total. My advice....DONT mess with this unless you have a lot of experience and a good home BP monitoring machine.

The ECY can be the only explanation for the rapid fat loss. It should be obvious to anyone with any experience that I should not be dropping 2lbs a week at 2400 cal. And I think most would easily see my maint can NOT be anywhere near 3400 cal. (working out only 3 hours a week and 40 min total cardio) So moderate activity level.

It really is crazy..... Dont know what to think....


As for strength, it has tanked as usual. Lost about 50lbs on my bench. (Down to repping 315x6 instead of 315x10 at the peak of my bulk) But from experience that is normal. Last time I cut I had the same strength loss. Good news, is in only one week of carbing back up, I got all my strength back. Sh!t it will be neat as hell at the end of this cut as I now should have no problem with a 2xBW bench and 3x bw dead. That will be cool as hell



Anyway....just wanted to share my experience on ECY. Hard to come up with any other explanation for the rapid fat loss I am experiencing.

 

[Go Away]

What's up Mac?
Couple questions for you...

How'd this pan out for you in the long run?
Also, what kind of dosing schedule did you keep?
Did you do two on/two off?
If so, you take anything on the off weeks as well?

I saw pics from Xmas - What a reality check! Need to step it up for 2013...

 

[macgyver]

What's up Mac?
Couple questions for you
How'd this pan out for you in the long run?

Great! I will do ALL my cutting this way from now on.

Also, what kind of dosing schedule did you keep?

My first does was about 6:30am and then every 4 hours....so getting in 3 doses was a non issue. I eventually got to where I brought the "Y" up in dose slightly. Highest I would go is 4-5mg....maybe on my Pre-WO dose. Others I would keep at 2.5-3mg.

Did you do two on/two off?

Nope....ran it straight though 10 weeks

If so, you take anything on the off weeks as well?

No...see above


Overall....this is the best experience on EC I have ever had. I like the appetite suppression and the muscle sparing effects cant hurt for sure. I like the stim effect as well....but after a few weeks it wears off significantly. Towards the end, I can take a dose and even nap without it bothering me at all.

Just one bit of advice....when you end it, just drop the "E" and the "Y", but taper off the "C". If you do not, you can get terrible headaches. I spent two weeks tapering down my caffeine.

 

[Go Away]

Really appreciate the detailed response!
I went and ordered a ton of Y and C, hit Walgreens for the E... Now for the waiting game.

One more question... Why did you decide against the two on/two off and to just go ten weeks straight?

 

[macgyver]

I have never heard of 2 on and 2 off for EC. Have heard people dose like that for clen. But the studies I have seen do not show receptor degradation with E over time. Actually studies have shown that E over time gets MORE effective. I have seen long-term studies as long as several months....showing it actually worked better over time.

You certainly get acclimated to the "stim" effect, but the thermogenic effects actually get stronger.


BTW... I order my E from Canada. I use getyourkick.com. You can order the "12 pack" and not exceed the import limit set by the DEA for a 30 day period or one time import. The "24 pack" although a better deal, exceeds this limit and you risk seizure. I like the E HCL better then sulfate....plus you dont get the other crap in the bronkaid. Price ends up being about the same.

 

[SHINE]

I have never heard of 2 on and 2 off for EC. Have heard people dose like that for clen. But the studies I have seen do not show receptor degradation with E over time. Actually studies have shown that E over time gets MORE effective. I have seen long-term studies as long as several months....showing it actually worked better over time.

You certainly get acclimated to the "stim" effect, but the thermogenic effects actually get stronger.


BTW... I order my E from Canada. I use getyourkick.com. You can order the "12 pack" and not exceed the import limit set by the DEA for a 30 day period or one time import. The "24 pack" although a better deal, exceeds this limit and you risk seizure. I like the E HCL better then sulfate....plus you dont get the other crap in the bronkaid. Price ends up being about the same.

Ephedrine looses it's effect i'm sure some like clen, albuterol and such, However Yohimbine does not .

 

[macgyver]

Ephedrine looses it's effect i'm sure some like clen, albuterol and such, However Yohimbine does not .

I'll have to look for the study, but I have seen one that shows it's effect on weight loss actually increases over time.

Will look

 

[macgyver]

Shine....here is some info, I will put the studies with the associated citations in later....just wanted to get this up so you could see it.

The advantages to using a non-specific beta agonist are two fold. First, although ephedrine binds to other adrenergic receptors, it seems that the most beneficial adrenergic effects, such as thermogenesis, are actually enhanced after chronic use.2,3

This may be explained by chronic stimulation of alpha receptors by NA and Adr. This chronic alpha-adrenergic stimulation may activate thyroxin deiodinases leading to the peripheral conversion of T4 to T3. In fact, significant increases in the ratio of T3 to T4 have been shown to occur after 4 weeks of chronic treatment of ephedrine.2

Increased levels of T3 can sensitize adrenergic sensitivity to NA and Adr. It should be noted that the same study showed that this ratio decreased below initial values after week 12 of treatment.

Another explanation of its increased efficacy after chronic treatment is it’s interaction with the beta-3 receptor. Although the exact structure and function of this receptor is still being explored, it is almost certain that at least 40% of ephedrine’s actions are due to it’s effect on beta-3 receptors. 6 A study done to explore this used a beta-1 and beta-2 antagonist called nadolol. Nadolol was administered concomitantly with ephedrine to healthy volunteers. Nadolol completely inhibited changes in heart rate and plasma glucose due to it’s blockade of beta-1 and beta-2 receptors. However, the thermogenic effect of ephedrine was still at about 43%. This means that at least 40% of ephedrine’s thermogenic effects are due to beta-3 activation. This alone does not explain ephedrine’s effects after long term use. What does explain this is the desensitization properties of the beta-3 receptor. Beta-3 receptors lack most of the structural properties that are responsible for beta-2 receptor desensitization. 7 So even after ephedrine fails to have significant effects on the beta-2 receptor, it would potentially continue to stimulate adenylate cyclase activity by virtue of its effect on the beta-3 receptor.


Concerning beta-2 receptor desensitization, the fact that ephedrine is less potent than specific beta-2 agonists decreases the amount of beta receptor down regulation subsequent to chronic treatment. Chronic stimulation of beta2-adrenergic receptors causes a decrease in the sensitivity of tissues to beta agonists. This decrease in sensitivity involves either homologous desensitization, where the receptor’s active site is translocated within the cell membrane so that the binding site is no longer positioned extra cellularly, or it involves heterologous desensitization, where the receptor is phosphorylated rendering it incapable of participating in the second messenger system. 4 Receptor desensitization is a complex process with several different mechanisms. This complexity allows for more control of hormone signaling. As a general rule, the more potent the stimulus, the greater and more rapid the desensitization. Clenbuterol elicits a strong thermogenic effect but only for a short period of about two weeks. The usual practice is to increase the dosage at this time. Unfortunately, this only increases desensitization further and makes catecholamine stimulated lipolysis virtually come to a halt. Ephedrine, on the other hand, elicits a more mild response but it’s thermogenic effects can be seen up to 20 weeks.5

In summary, the advantages of using a non-selective beta agonist such as ephedrine are, it has beneficial effects on thyroxin deiodinase activity thereby increasing the T3/T4 ratio, it’s effect on beta-3 receptors, and it’s tendency not to cause extreme desensitization of beta-2 receptors. All of this lends to the fact that the thermogenic affects of ephedrine are enhanced after chronic treatment.

2. Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ. Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man. Am J Clin Nutr. 1985 Jul; 42(1): 83-94.

3. Astrup A, Madsen J, Holst JJ, Christensen NJ The effect of chronic ephedrine treatment on substrate utilization, the sympathoadrenal activity, and energy expenditure during glucose-induced thermogenesis in man. Metabolism 1986 Mar;35(3):260-265

4. Sibley DR, Daniel K, Strader CD, Lefkowitz RJ Phosphorylation of the beta-adrenergic receptor in intact cells: relationship to heterologous and homologous mechanisms of adenylate cyclase desensitization. Arch Biochem Biophys. 1987 Oct; 258(1): 24-32.

5. Toubro S, Astrup AV, Breum L, Quaade F. Safety and efficacy of long-term treatment with ephedrine, caffeine and an ephedrine/caffeine mixture. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord Feb;17 Suppl 1:S69-S72 1993

6. Liu YL, Toubro S, Astrup A, Stock MJ. Contribution of beta 3-adrenoceptor activation to ephedrine-induced thermogenesis in humans. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1995 Sep;19(9):678-685

7. Nantel F, Bonin H, Emorine LJ, Zilberfarb V, Strosberg AD, Bouvier M, Marullo S The human beta 3-adrenergic receptor is resistant to short term agonist-promoted desensitization. Mol Pharmacol 1993 Apr;43(4):548-555

 

[SHINE]

Increased levels of T3 can sensitize adrenergic sensitivity to NA and Adr. It should be noted that the same study showed that this ratio decreased below initial values after week 12 of treatment.

Thing is you still desensitize , much slower than clen , yes. And then T-3 peaks and then starts to drop and eventually effects won't be as pronounced.

I should of said in my earlier statement that yes you can use ephedrine for many weeks with chronic use but you will find out 25mgs won't do two weeks later what it did the first week and so you eventually will need to increase the dose if you abuse it like some do. ( ephedrine slowly looses it's effects, although over a long period , dose dependent)

For most who will never use ephedrine for 20 weeks straight yes it will stay effective unlike clen.

So even after 12 weeks when T-3 and your thyroid slow down and the beta 1's and 2's down regulate the beta 3 shows 40% activity.
by that time you will need to up the dose to have the same effect.

adenylate cyclase activity by virtue of its effect on the beta-3 receptor.

add a little external t-3 *with in reason since it is a bit hard on the heart*

Good article, I agree the effects last a long time. But if you use long enough your body will desensitize to ephedrine as well.



Post up any info you have. I'd like to see each of the full studies they posted. See if I can get them.

 

[macgyver]

Bumping old thread. Was looking my my ECY thread. Could not remember "Y" dosage. I think I am going to do this again..... Shine and I were talking about this a while ago, and it really worked well for me. Man he is really missed.

I am right at 220 now and only eating big for 3 more weeks and then dropping cals after the new year. I am feeling 'big' in clothes, but look smaller without I feel. Definition has taken a slight hit. Only place I can tell a small skinfold increase is in my abdomen. I know otherwise I have picked up some VAT as it is easy to see by girth. No big deal as VAT drops so easy.

This will be my first cut since I started being treated for hypo-thyroid. I am not sure if this will make it easier or harder. My metabolism should be raised which means I should be able to eat slightly more and still lose. IIRC, the difference I saw was about 200+/- cal per day.

I'll just be on reg TRT dose while cutting so raising up T3 too high is not an option. Currently scripted to take 37.5mcg/day (1 1/2 25mcg tabs)

Just getting in the right mindset to cut. I actually am looking forward to the break from eating. (I say that now and after 2 weeks I will be whining that I miss all the food!

)

 

[Go Away]

5mg Yohimbine Hcl with 25mg ephedrine and 200mg caffeine is what Shine advised me on Homie. 3x per day... If the 5mg hits too hard go with 2.5mg - some people get heart racing with too much, especially in hotter climates.

 

[macgyver]

5mg Yohimbine Hcl with 25mg ephedrine and 200mg caffeine is what Shine advised me on Homie. 3x per day... If the 5mg hits too hard go with 2.5mg - some people get heart racing with too much, especially in hotter climates.

Yep! Looking back through this thread, made me remember what a great wealth of info SHINE possessed. It made for some good discussions and even forced me to sharpen up on things.

Like I said in the original post, the effects of the "Y" in addition must be very synergistic. I have in the past run VERY tightly controlled intakes, and my last run of this was no different. The numbers of my intake and weight loss dont add up. The ECY must have made a fairly significant impact. That is why I am planning on running it again.

I'll have to update when I do.... I am actually looking forward to eating a little less for a while. Plan on starting after first week of the new year.