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Combined usage of testosterone and nandrolone may cause heart damage?

bybon

bybon

VIP Member
Sep 15, 2011
480
69
I agree completely. Thank you for the excellent and highly relevant paper. Hopefully, there'll be an explosion in research and trials into these applications. These drugs (AAS; synthetic androgens) have clear benefits for medicine but are still largely relegated to use in third world nations for conditions like hereditary angioedema, inoperable malignant breast cancer (as an absolute last resort), anemia, etc.
Sorry for solely guiding you with search terms-I just don't have the time to post research like I used to in UG (I'm hulksmash). You take the helm.

Did you find some neat (or scary) research with Focal segmental glomerulosclerosis initiated by AAS? I hope ya did!

Too bad we can't have our cake and eat it, too. I've learned that nature will always ensure costs come with benefits, especially in physiology.
 
rosoo

rosoo

Member
Apr 25, 2022
54
22
This was his idea of "off cycle"

"On cycle" was 3-4 grams of test, 600mg to a gram of tren, 10iu of GH per day and 2-3 orals for 6-8 months at a time. I guess he figured thats what he needed to maintain his size and condition.
That's almost like donating a new kidney and liver plus performing a heart transplant already.. wow
 
W

Wilson6

VIP Member
Dec 17, 2019
331
510
Just had this conversation with my urologist over the weekend at dinner. He's prescribed 200 mg/wk to guys since the 1980's, no patient has ever had a problem. He was often criticized for that dose by his colleagues (endos and interns) but they had nothing to support that being a negative. Some of his patients were/are docs at his institution. He had the largest HRT practice at a major hospital. I also saw my 81 yr old friend, been on ND/TC about 200 mg/10 days for decades. Still doing very well. Gave the guy at hug before dinner and he felt like a 50 yr old lifter (hard physique), not at all weak, wirey and frail. His dad and uncle both died in the 40's from MIs and he has a Gleason 6 PCa that is stable but he's stayed fit (run and lift since his 20's). Regardless, we need data (echos and CT angiograms in particular) from the numerous HRT clinics that are prescribing 200 - 300 mg/wk of TC or TC/ND. A long term data set would help considerably with resolving these questions. The big question is, lets say that long term HRT does shave a few years off of life span, but you enjoy a significantly enhance QOL because of it. What is more important?
 
gunslinger

gunslinger

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2010
1,592
739
Just had this conversation with my urologist over the weekend at dinner. He's prescribed 200 mg/wk to guys since the 1980's, no patient has ever had a problem. He was often criticized for that dose by his colleagues (endos and interns) but they had nothing to support that being a negative. Some of his patients were/are docs at his institution. He had the largest HRT practice at a major hospital. I also saw my 81 yr old friend, been on ND/TC about 200 mg/10 days for decades. Still doing very well. Gave the guy at hug before dinner and he felt like a 50 yr old lifter (hard physique), not at all weak, wirey and frail. His dad and uncle both died in the 40's from MIs and he has a Gleason 6 PCa that is stable but he's stayed fit (run and lift since his 20's). Regardless, we need data (echos and CT angiograms in particular) from the numerous HRT clinics that are prescribing 200 - 300 mg/wk of TC or TC/ND. A long term data set would help considerably with resolving these questions. The big question is, lets say that long term HRT does shave a few years off of life span, but you enjoy a significantly enhance QOL because of it. What is more important?
I was actually thinking the same thing. I think most ppl would be more than willing to give up a few years in exchange for a much higher quality of life. Assuming there was a risk.
 
rosoo

rosoo

Member
Apr 25, 2022
54
22
Just had this conversation with my urologist over the weekend at dinner. He's prescribed 200 mg/wk to guys since the 1980's, no patient has ever had a problem. He was often criticized for that dose by his colleagues (endos and interns) but they had nothing to support that being a negative. Some of his patients were/are docs at his institution. He had the largest HRT practice at a major hospital. I also saw my 81 yr old friend, been on ND/TC about 200 mg/10 days for decades. Still doing very well. Gave the guy at hug before dinner and he felt like a 50 yr old lifter (hard physique), not at all weak, wirey and frail. His dad and uncle both died in the 40's from MIs and he has a Gleason 6 PCa that is stable but he's stayed fit (run and lift since his 20's). Regardless, we need data (echos and CT angiograms in particular) from the numerous HRT clinics that are prescribing 200 - 300 mg/wk of TC or TC/ND. A long term data set would help considerably with resolving these questions. The big question is, lets say that long term HRT does shave a few years off of life span, but you enjoy a significantly enhance QOL because of it. What is more important?
For me I would go for quality of life rather than longevity that is life suffering
 
bybon

bybon

VIP Member
Sep 15, 2011
480
69
Just had this conversation with my urologist over the weekend at dinner. He's prescribed 200 mg/wk to guys since the 1980's, no patient has ever had a problem. He was often criticized for that dose by his colleagues (endos and interns) but they had nothing to support that being a negative. Some of his patients were/are docs at his institution. He had the largest HRT practice at a major hospital. I also saw my 81 yr old friend, been on ND/TC about 200 mg/10 days for decades. Still doing very well. Gave the guy at hug before dinner and he felt like a 50 yr old lifter (hard physique), not at all weak, wirey and frail. His dad and uncle both died in the 40's from MIs and he has a Gleason 6 PCa that is stable but he's stayed fit (run and lift since his 20's). Regardless, we need data (echos and CT angiograms in particular) from the numerous HRT clinics that are prescribing 200 - 300 mg/wk of TC or TC/ND. A long term data set would help considerably with resolving these questions. The big question is, lets say that long term HRT does shave a few years off of life span, but you enjoy a significantly enhance QOL because of it. What is more important?
1. Genes are the most important variable. Nearly every supercentenarian (living to 110 years old and above) had continuous behavior such as smoking, drinking alcohol, and eating sweets like chocolate. Their genes allowed them to have extreme longevity despite "bad" choices. The same rings true for those who use AAS continuously yet maintain great health.

2. The majority of AAS users that have adverse effects usually originates from disregarding conditions such as hypertension, dehydration, etc. For example, kidney failure, heart failure, and other organ dysfunction can happen from solely living with severe, untreated hypertension. Neglecting adverse changes due to AAS use is pure gambling with one's health.

3. Dose a d duration of use with AAS does matter. The higher the dose, combined with longer duration, is a quick path to adverse physiological effects, especially if combined with diuretic, thyroid, and GH use.

No one should lower caution simply because others have the genetic capacity to stave off adverse effects from AAS use. Always make an informed, cautious choice if AAS and ancillaries are being used. Always stay on top of bloodwork and other physiological data (e.g. MRI on joints).
 
Type-IIx

Type-IIx

Member
Mar 24, 2022
60
42
Sorry for solely guiding you with search terms-I just don't have the time to post research like I used to in UG (I'm hulksmash). You take the helm.

Did you find some neat (or scary) research with Focal segmental glomerulosclerosis initiated by AAS? I hope ya did!

Too bad we can't have our cake and eat it, too. I've learned that nature will always ensure costs come with benefits, especially in physiology.
It's OK, it was a good query and led me to the most pertinent data. I appreciate it.

Yes, AAS-induced FSGS is very real. I've read the case studies and Bond's Book on Steroids where he sort of pieces together the evidence, suggesting a potential mechanism, though admittedly weak (in vitro data showing that podocyte cells express AR & ER; androgens seem to promote apoptosis, whereas estrogens oppose).
 
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