Combined usage of testosterone and nandrolone may cause heart damage?

[rosoo]

I found an article online stating that --> Combined usage of testosterone and nandrolone may
cause heart damage

Not sure if this is true?

 

[gunslinger]

I'm sure any ASS taken to excess COULD cause heart damage. That said there are a few peoples I have with this study right from the start.

1. People aren't rabbits.

2. They were given 10mg per kg of bodyweight. Thats a fuck ton of deca and test for a 210 lb male. Around a gram of each for 12 weeks.

3. They were given this during adolescence. While their bodies were still developing. Like giving high doses of nandrolone and test to a 12 year old.

Lost of things wrong with these kinds of "studies"

 

[Wilson6]

There is an abundance of animal lit showing negative effects of nandrolone on the heart and it is driven by both ANG II and ROS, but nothing in the human literature to date, at least in doses 200 mg/wk or less, even up to 600 mg/wk for 3 months. Nandrolone has been used and abused for decades, while there are human studies showing LVH and other cardiac pathologies with AAS abuse, its not as simple as A + B = C. If you use nandrolone get a yearly echo, its that simple. Animals are not humans. For rabbits you have to take the rabbit dose 10 mg/wk and divide by 3.1 to get the human equiv. For a rat, 6.2. That would be about 3.24 mg/kg. Regardless, there was a rabbit study that at 4 mg/kg (rabbit dose) showed no negative effect. IMO, if you're taking any androgens, control ANG II, ROS and blood pressure. I have an 81 yr old friend that has been using ND/TC for decades. His yearly echo is normal and unchanged.

 

[bybon]

AAS are known to cause:
1. Negative cardiac effects
2. Focal segmental glomerulosclerosis (why tons of BBers end up on dialysis)
3. Heart hyperplasia/hypertrophy
4. Proteinuria
5. Malignant hypertension
6. Collagen remodeling
7. Fibrosis in different tissues (e.g. kidneys, tendons, etc)

More variables than that, and usually it's the uncontrolled hypertension that will cause the kidney diseases.

Collagen synthesis is increased with AAS (e.g. higher cross-sectional area of tendons) but the extracellular matrix/framework is dysfunctional, and the cause for the huge amount of AAS users who get tendon tears/ruptures.

Plenty of data on negative heart/cardiac effects from AAS use.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, but many AAS users refuse to believe that and won't take necessary actions to mitigate the deleterious effects of AAS use. I was once that stubborn, too.

 

[gunslinger]

I'm sure any ASS taken to excess COULD cause heart damage. That said there are a few peoples I have with this study right from the start.

1. People aren't rabbits.

2. They were given 10mg per kg of bodyweight. Thats a fuck ton of deca and test for a 210 lb male. Around a gram of each for 12 weeks.

3. They were given this during adolescence. While their bodies were still developing. Like giving high doses of nandrolone and test to a 12 year old.

Lost of things wrong with these kinds of "studies"

Apparently lots of things wrong with my spell check and proof reading also.

 

[Wilson6]

We have to separate abuse vs use. I have not seen anything that suggests 200 mg/TC and 100 mg/ND as HRT (and some docs prescribe that much ) to cause serious problems but that doesn't mean it can't. We just don't have the data. What ByBon stated is 100% correct and also depends on dose/drug and duration. If you're taking even 300 mg/wk, you should still be watching labs (min 2x/yr), echo yearly and abdominal US every 2 yrs.

 

[rosoo]

I'm sure any ASS taken to excess COULD cause heart damage. That said there are a few peoples I have with this study right from the start.

1. People aren't rabbits.

2. They were given 10mg per kg of bodyweight. Thats a fuck ton of deca and test for a 210 lb male. Around a gram of each for 12 weeks.

3. They were given this during adolescence. While their bodies were still developing. Like giving high doses of nandrolone and test to a 12 year old.

Lost of things wrong with these kinds of "studies"

very true and agree to the above

 

[gunslinger]

We have to separate abuse vs use. I have not seen anything that suggests 200 mg/TC and 100 mg/ND as HRT (and some docs prescribe that much ) to cause serious problems but that doesn't mean it can't. We just don't have the data. What ByBon stated is 100% correct and also depends on dose/drug and duration. If you're taking even 300 mg/wk, you should still be watching labs (min 2x/yr), echo yearly and abdominal US every 2 yrs.

As I've said many times on here and other boards over the years.... pretty much everything with every med is dose dependent. Most OTC meds will mess you up far worse than mega dosing gear. Don't believe me? Take 10 pink 5 thai dbol per day for 5 days and see what happens. Now do the same with tylenol, asprin, sudafed, caffine pills, etc. Hell, eat 5 McDonalds burgers per day for a few weeks and see what happens. All far worse than taking gear for years on end. I mean sure, I guess you could take a gram of test and a gram of deca per week for months or years until you force some kind of negative sides or reactions. But is that really being honest or just looking for something to fit a narrative?

 

[The other Snake]

I'm sure any ASS taken to excess COULD cause heart damage. That said there are a few peoples I have with this study right from the start.

1. People aren't rabbits.

2. They were given 10mg per kg of bodyweight. Thats a fuck ton of deca and test for a 210 lb male. Around a gram of each for 12 weeks.

3. They were given this during adolescence. While their bodies were still developing. Like giving high doses of nandrolone and test to a 12 year old.

Lost of things wrong with these kinds of "studies"

I read the study and went to post and damn if you didn't hit everything I was going to post.

Did I miss it or did they not actually do any direct heart testing? It's a real leap to say AST, ALT and Creatine are up and that leads to heart issues.

 

[gunslinger]

I read the study and went to post and damn if you didn't hit everything I was going to post.

Did I miss it or did they not actually do any direct heart testing? It's a real leap to say AST, ALT and Creatine are up and that leads to heart issues.

Yeah they made several leaps here. Again it doesn't look like real science to me. More like they had a goal and tried to make the study fit the conclusion they wanted. Not sure why.

 

[genetic freak]

Well said everyone. Unfortunately, like mentioned there are limited studies on this and the difference between use and abuse is subjective. We could argue that any use other than TRT is abuse. Even with that, we do not really know what TRT will do over a long period of time (i.e. 30-40+ years of TRT), because there simply are not many studies on it right now. This is likely to change, as TRT is much more accepted as a form of treatment in aging men compared to what it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

 

[The other Snake]

Well said everyone. Unfortunately, like mentioned there are limited studies on this and the difference between use and abuse is subjective. We could argue that any use other than TRT is abuse. Even with that, we do not really know what TRT will do over a long period of time (i.e. 30-40+ years of TRT), because there simply are not many studies on it right now. This is likely to change, as TRT is much more accepted as a form of treatment in aging men compared to what it was 10, 15, 20 years ago.

I hate to say this but the Golden age of TRT is behind us. Off topic be worth pointing out.