Case Study over 7 yrs

[Wilson6]

I'm curious about the pinning of a long estered test for women at 1x/week vs. 2x/week. If a woman injected 20mg test C every Monday, or 10mg test C on Monday and Thursday, would the two shots per week have less sides on the woman, or are we splitting hairs?

In the end you'd have the same steady state (about 6 weeks with E or cyp). Would be an interesting trial though. Less peaks and troughs, what effect on sides or benefits, probably some but likely individual. I don't like to go more than every 5 days. If one can handle the inj, spread a weekly total over 3 shots. Just my personal preference. In guys it keeps the peak metabolites down as well as lessens erythrocytosis and best replicates natural production. Many swear by it (daily sc small dosing).

 

[Bigtex]

How about 6mg of Test propionate ever 2 days? Much easier to control sides with a very short ester. It would be easy to cut the dose if sides start. For instance my wife was using I think 15mg of test base each day made as a transdermal and got pretty good results. It has a half life of 2 hours.

 

[Wilson6]

How about 6mg of Test propionate ever 2 days? Much easier to control sides with a very short ester. It would be easy to cut the dose if sides start. For instance my wife was using I think 15mg of test base each day made as a transdermal and got pretty good results. It has a half life of 2 hours.

That is a question I've always wondered about. Many years ago one of the women pros posted (I think the Elite F board) that her experiences suggested that higher either (oral or short esters) dosing, intermittently gave her better results with less sides. I wonder, is there a difference between turning on skeletal muscle protein synthesis vs androgen sides relative to spiking blood levels of T for very short periods of time vs lower concentrations for the duration. Prop or TNE mg/mg would provide much higher blood conc of T but for shorter periods of time than CYP or ENAN. Are there events downstream relative to protein synthesis that get turned on and stay on for a period after the androgen is gone vs sides? Is the spike in blood conc more productive. One of the girls at the gym years ago had tried Var 20 mg EOD vs 10 mg/d and swore she had better results and that goes against the 9 or so hour half life and concept of splitting the daily dose. If you look at Bhasin's work in 2000, the 125 mg/wk dose of T yielded the same avg blood conc of the guys baseline (controls) but the guys on the IM T had significant increases in lean mass. Why? Likely the spike after the inj vs the normal lower conc of endogenous T. None of this has ever been studied, so who knows?

 

[Bigtex]

That is a question I've always wondered about. Many years ago one of the women pros posted (I think the Elite F board) that her experiences suggested that higher either (oral or short esters) dosing, intermittently gave her better results with less sides. I wonder, is there a difference between turning on skeletal muscle protein synthesis vs androgen sides relative to spiking blood levels of T for very short periods of time vs lower concentrations for the duration. Prop or TNE mg/mg would provide much higher blood conc of T but for shorter periods of time than CYP or ENAN. Are there events downstream relative to protein synthesis that get turned on and stay on for a period after the androgen is gone vs sides? Is the spike in blood conc more productive. One of the girls at the gym years ago had tried Var 20 mg EOD vs 10 mg/d and swore she had better results and that goes against the 9 or so hour half life and concept of splitting the daily dose. If you look at Bhasin's work in 2000, the 125 mg/wk dose of T yielded the same avg blood conc of the guys baseline (controls) but the guys on the IM T had significant increases in lean mass. Why? Likely the spike after the inj vs the normal lower conc of endogenous T. None of this has ever been studied, so who knows?

I think like many men report, esters are individual in response. I have problems with cypionate. My wife used anadrol and even tren E the last few weeks of her cutting phase to harden the muscles. Worked really well. Most women would never think of trying anything that androgenic. Again, the thing I see with the short esters is the have short half lives and doses can be titrated up or down easily when unwanted side effects pop up. With intermediates is is a little more difficult to turn the ship around. You know my wife competed in a time when no one knew about blood testing. She won the nationals when Cory Everson was Ms Universe, in fact, Everson gave an award of Distinguished Athlete of the year at the 1st International Convention of Fitness and Bodybuilding in Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1990. Lots has changed since then and obviously it is not for the better or we would not have lost woman's bodybuilding. The IFBB allowed women to go to far and take the femininity out of BB. Here is a picture of a woman from Argentina that my wife competed against and beat in the nationals and moved to the USA. She went pro shortly after my wife won the nationals, Maria Calo. She completely changed.....amazing musculature but my wife was not willing to go that far and lose her femininity. But that has to be an individual decision.

 

[Bigtex]

Forgot to pass this off. Here are the current recommendation for women who need testosterone replacement.

Testosterone — Topical
150 or 300 mcg/day transdermal (1.5 or 3mg)

1) Miller KK. Androgen deficiency in women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;86(6):2395-401.

2) Shifren JL, Braunstein GD, Simon JA, et al. Transdermal testosterone treatment in women with impaired sexual
function after oophorectomy. N Engl J Med. 2000 Sep 7;343(10):682-8.

Medical science is still very much lost in this area.

 

[Wilson6]

Forgot to pass this off. Here are the current recommendation for women who need testosterone replacement.

Testosterone — Topical
150 or 300 mcg/day transdermal (1.5 or 3mg)

1) Miller KK. Androgen deficiency in women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Jun;86(6):2395-401.

2) Shifren JL, Braunstein GD, Simon JA, et al. Transdermal testosterone treatment in women with impaired sexual
function after oophorectomy. N Engl J Med. 2000 Sep 7;343(10):682-8.

Medical science is still very much lost in this area.

Victor Black talks about 3 mg/wk as a pure replacement. The Huang et al study showed that 3 mg/wk of TE produced a nadir (right before the next inj) of 78 ng/dl but only the12.5 and 25 mg/wk dose had an significant effect on a number of variables including feeling of well being and that produced a nadir of 128 and 210 ng/dl, respectively. I would at least double those values for the peak blood conc a couple days after the injection. Glaser's work showed the same in women on pellets. It takes a supraphysiologic dose of T in women to improve libido and feeling of well being and in most is generally well tolerated. 150 to 300 mcg/d isn't enough to get a female mouse to mount another female mouse! What docs don't realize is that testosterone is really the dominant sex hormone in young women (not on bc), not estrogen except during short period of the menstrual cycle and yet it becomes irrelavent with HRT in women. Compare absolute pg/ml T to pg/ml of E2, the number would surprise most. We are used to seeing E2 in pg/ml in women and testosterone in ng/dl, make them equal and it looks very different. It is there for a reason.

 

[Wilson6]

I think like many men report, esters are individual in response. I have problems with cypionate. My wife used anadrol and even tren E the last few weeks of her cutting phase to harden the muscles. Worked really well. Most women would never think of trying anything that androgenic. Again, the thing I see with the short esters is the have short half lives and doses can be titrated up or down easily when unwanted side effects pop up. With intermediates is is a little more difficult to turn the ship around. You know my wife competed in a time when no one knew about blood testing. She won the nationals when Cory Everson was Ms Universe, in fact, Everson gave an award of Distinguished Athlete of the year at the 1st International Convention of Fitness and Bodybuilding in Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1990. Lots has changed since then and obviously it is not for the better or we would not have lost woman's bodybuilding. The IFBB allowed women to go to far and take the femininity out of BB. Here is a picture of a woman from Argentina that my wife competed against and beat in the nationals and moved to the USA. She went pro shortly after my wife won the nationals, Maria Calo. She completely changed.....amazing musculature but my wife was not willing to go that far and lose her femininity. But that has to be an individual decision.

View attachment 14980

My current favorites in women's BB are Leyvina Barros and Theresa Ivancik. There are others out there as well, Sarhar from Iran is pretty solid and still look good. The way I'm falling apart with age, I'd be happy with any of those physiques right now, without the boobs and I'd still want to keep my dick.

 

[Bigtex]

My current favorites in women's BB are Leyvina Barros and Theresa Ivancik. There are others out there as well, Sarhar from Iran is pretty solid and still look good. The way I'm falling apart with age, I'd be happy with any of those physiques right now, without the boobs and I'd still want to keep my dick.

These women have a much softer, feminine look. I have had a few aerobic girls in my classes that showed me pictures of the gym they have. Women are getting into weightlifting more and more.

 

[Bigtex]

Victor Black talks about 3 mg/wk as a pure replacement. The Huang et al study showed that 3 mg/wk of TE produced a nadir (right before the next inj) of 78 ng/dl but only the12.5 and 25 mg/wk dose had an significant effect on a number of variables including feeling of well being and that produced a nadir of 128 and 210 ng/dl, respectively. I would at least double those values for the peak blood conc a couple days after the injection. Glaser's work showed the same in women on pellets. It takes a supraphysiologic dose of T in women to improve libido and feeling of well being and in most is generally well tolerated. 150 to 300 mcg/d isn't enough to get a female mouse to mount another female mouse! What docs don't realize is that testosterone is really the dominant sex hormone in young women (not on bc), not estrogen except during short period of the menstrual cycle and yet it becomes irrelavent with HRT in women. Compare absolute pg/ml T to pg/ml of E2, the number would surprise most. We are used to seeing E2 in pg/ml in women and testosterone in ng/dl, make them equal and it looks very different. It is there for a reason.

I think that dose is way too low too. Wilson6, most likely guys like us have much more experience working with women's dosing than these guys in science. I honestly think that women will feel better on larger doses and the slight increase in clitoral size will enhance sex. Most women who do TRT are wanting to increase the libido anyway.