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Calories and when the system hates carnivore

WhiteApe

WhiteApe

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Nov 11, 2025
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Fat was almost flat (75–80 g → ~78–82 g) which was dramatically down (42% - ~33%). Protein showed a tiny increase (~70 g - ~78 g). Carbohydrates had a massive increase from 42% -52–55%. Every single one of the extra ~400 kcal/day — came from carbohydrates (refined flour + added sugars). So yes there were extra calories taken in but had the increase been in protein we know the extra calories does not cause the same effect. Instead of the low fat message we were given, the explosion of cheap, hyper-palatable, low-fat/high-carb processed foods (fat-free cookies, sugary cereals, soda, pasta, bagels, etc.) caused people to eat more total calories than ever before, while the macronutrient that increased was the one most likely to drive fat storage in the average person: refined carbohydrates. Had we left it alone or maybe even pushed eating more protein, this may not have never happened. The food guide pyramid is wrong because it has us consuming themajority of our calories from carbohydrates. Wash't so long ago that Jose Antonio (PhD, Nova Southeastern University) had led several landmark studies showing that overfeeding on protein (~800kcal +) does not lead to fat gain—and often improves body composition—in resistance-trained individuals. These studies directly challenge the "a calorie is a calorie" dogma by demonstrating protein's unique metabolic effects (high TEF, poor storage as fat, and partitioning toward lean mass).


I definitely agree with you, I don't care how people eat.
I agree with the protein overfeeding and it being very likely to not add fat gain. I believe Don Layman has research that also shows this.

You mention that fat intake was almost flat but also mentioned it was dramatically down. I assume I missed this data in the overall post and that in 1971-1974 it was down from decades prior. My comments were based on the table of 1971-2000 which showed fat intake level, protein slightly up, and carbs drastically increase.

This conversation gave me the urge to order a used copy of "The Big Fat Surprise" off amazon to reread.
 
gunslinger

gunslinger

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@gunslinger There are many interesting anecdotes. I personally think many different "diets" can work and satiety, adherence, and consistency play a large role.

For Clarification I define the following as:
Keto - high fat, low carb, moderate protein. Plants/fiber are still a large part
Carnivore - no plants
Meat based - Isn't keto but still allows plants and limited starchy carbs

Carb cycling "works" for me, but it is difficult to adhere to. Being lower in fat most days can make my cravings for fattier food knock me off my day. And because I have high carb days, the days where I am basically meat based, I sometimes binge on carbs in the evening and then that whole day was ruined. I know it's mostly mental but the back-and-forth thing kind of sucks.

Questions:
1. How has your performance been affected? Endurance, Strength, Size, etc
2. How's your GI tract? How long did it take to be okay?
3. How long to lose the carb cravings?
4. Any bad BO or "keto breath"?
5. What issues did it fix and did any new issues arise?

Thank you, sir.
1. Until my neck injury last year performance had gone up. Endurance way up, Strength about the same, size? Well I did drop 50 pounds so of course size went down. The goal was to be healthy not try to be Mr O at 49 years old.
2. All gut issues went away completely. Took about a month. I have zero bloating, no gas...at all. Before Carnivore I though pain, gas and constipation were just a fact of life.
3. About 3 months for the cravings to go away.
4. BO is the same and the keto breath went away after about 4-6 weeks
5. Well I lost weight so my knees are very thankful, BP went from 180/120 to 140/70, Resting heart rate went from 99 BPM to 68, Arthritis pain down about 70-80%, as stated gut issues all gone, skin cleared up, brain fog gone, energy levels way up and consistent.
 
Bigtex

Bigtex

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Aug 14, 2012
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I agree with the protein overfeeding and it being very likely to not add fat gain. I believe Don Layman has research that also shows this.

You mention that fat intake was almost flat but also mentioned it was dramatically down. I assume I missed this data in the overall post and that in 1971-1974 it was down from decades prior. My comments were based on the table of 1971-2000 which showed fat intake level, protein slightly up, and carbs drastically increase.

This conversation gave me the urge to order a used copy of "The Big Fat Surprise" off amazon to reread.
If you look at the table again, fat was mostly flat and in the late 80's it started to fall, which ended up below baseline. Protein was just above baseline. Obesity and Type II diebetes also rose at a huge rate around the time fat slightly dropped. Now, how closely did people follow goverment recommendations......the low-fat, high-carb movement from the 1970s through the early 2000s wasn’t just “big”… it dominated nutrition policy, food manufacturing, public health messaging, and weight-loss culture for over 30 years. Food manufacturers reformulated nearly everything: Low-fat yogurt, fat-free cookies, low-fat salad dressing, low-fat cereals and granola bars and fat-free cheese, ice cream, mayo, and even peanut butter. We even got rid of butter and developed margarine ( how did that work out). Fat adds flavor to foods, so to replace the missing fat, companies added refined carbs and sugar, which ironically worsened obesity and insulin resistance. Americans were continually fed a huge portion or propaganda: “Fat makes you fat.” “Eat low-fat for heart health.” “Heart Healthy” check mark for low-fat, high-carb foods. The food pyramid (1992) put carbs as the base at 6–11 servings/day. Further, in 1977 the Senate’s McGovern Committee pushed out national dietary advice urging Americans to: eat less fat and eat more carbohydrates. The food industry around the same time 1975-1985 high fructose corn syrup started to be added to foods to further make things worse. After all corn was a lot cheaper than sugar.

In short, the metabolic consequences of 30 years of low-fat, high-carbohydrate eating (1970s–2000s) were enormous — and they shaped the modern epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and cardiovascular disease.

I remember doing my master's degree in nutrition and my professor pushed off a diet of 65-70% carbs, 20%fat and 10-15% protein. We were taught that high protein caused kidney damage, fat made you fat and the food guide pyramid was the holy grail of nutrition. My professor laughed at me when I asked questions about the Mauro DiPasquale's Anabolic diet and said that was a heart attack waiting to happen. Lots has changed since then but still the same stuff is being taught and doctors keep repeating the same old news. In that same time period we had vegetable oils (PUFAs) pushed on us and still in all grocery stores the majority of the oils there are in the middle where most of us psychologically look for products. It has to find MUFAs which we know now are a much healther choice.

Look at the timing:
  • Low-fat guidelines (1977)
  • Food Pyramid (1992)
  • Explosion of low-fat, high-sugar products (1980s–1990s)
  • Obesity rates skyrocket starting RIGHT THEN
The US obesity rate:
  • 1970: ~15%
  • 2000: ~31%
  • 2025: ~42%
* Notably, the curve changes slope at the exact time low-fat eating became mainstream.
* High-carb ultra-processed foods created a metabolic environment where fat gain was far easier.
 
Ron OG Mouse

Ron OG Mouse

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Sep 29, 2025
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This is 100% true. I have clients who travel for business or leisure to Europe and when they ask me about their nutrition plan, I just tell them to eat whatever they want. Not once has one of them actually gained weight eating food in Europe. NOT FUCKING ONCE! They eat all the food they want and come back leaner than when they left. Food quality is just so much better.
The wife and I are considering retiring to Portugal. The Shrimp are the size of lobster and taste amazing. Everyone walks everywhere. That's another thing about the US. We will get in our cars to drive 1 mile to the store. The last time we were in europe we walked 8 miles a day.
 
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genetic freak

genetic freak

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The wife and I are considering retiring to Portugal. The Shrimp are the size of lobster and taste amazing. Everyone walks everywhere. That's another thing about the US. We will get in our cars to drive 1 mile to the store. The last time we were in europe we walked 8 miles a day.
Exactly! Everyone says they are hitting 15k or more steps per day and it isn't like it is flat.
 
WhiteApe

WhiteApe

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Nov 11, 2025
92
83
If you look at the table again, fat was mostly flat and in the late 80's it started to fall, which ended up below baseline. Protein was just above baseline. Obesity and Type II diebetes also rose at a huge rate around the time fat slightly dropped. Now, how closely did people follow goverment recommendations......the low-fat, high-carb movement from the 1970s through the early 2000s wasn’t just “big”… it dominated nutrition policy, food manufacturing, public health messaging, and weight-loss culture for over 30 years. Food manufacturers reformulated nearly everything: Low-fat yogurt, fat-free cookies, low-fat salad dressing, low-fat cereals and granola bars and fat-free cheese, ice cream, mayo, and even peanut butter. We even got rid of butter and developed margarine ( how did that work out). Fat adds flavor to foods, so to replace the missing fat, companies added refined carbs and sugar, which ironically worsened obesity and insulin resistance. Americans were continually fed a huge portion or propaganda: “Fat makes you fat.” “Eat low-fat for heart health.” “Heart Healthy” check mark for low-fat, high-carb foods. The food pyramid (1992) put carbs as the base at 6–11 servings/day. Further, in 1977 the Senate’s McGovern Committee pushed out national dietary advice urging Americans to: eat less fat and eat more carbohydrates. The food industry around the same time 1975-1985 high fructose corn syrup started to be added to foods to further make things worse. After all corn was a lot cheaper than sugar.

In short, the metabolic consequences of 30 years of low-fat, high-carbohydrate eating (1970s–2000s) were enormous — and they shaped the modern epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and cardiovascular disease.

I remember doing my master's degree in nutrition and my professor pushed off a diet of 65-70% carbs, 20%fat and 10-15% protein. We were taught that high protein caused kidney damage, fat made you fat and the food guide pyramid was the holy grail of nutrition. My professor laughed at me when I asked questions about the Mauro DiPasquale's Anabolic diet and said that was a heart attack waiting to happen. Lots has changed since then but still the same stuff is being taught and doctors keep repeating the same old news. In that same time period we had vegetable oils (PUFAs) pushed on us and still in all grocery stores the majority of the oils there are in the middle where most of us psychologically look for products. It has to find MUFAs which we know now are a much healther choice.

Look at the timing:
  • Low-fat guidelines (1977)
  • Food Pyramid (1992)
  • Explosion of low-fat, high-sugar products (1980s–1990s)
  • Obesity rates skyrocket starting RIGHT THEN
The US obesity rate:
  • 1970: ~15%
  • 2000: ~31%
  • 2025: ~42%
* Notably, the curve changes slope at the exact time low-fat eating became mainstream.
* High-carb ultra-processed foods created a metabolic environment where fat gain was far easier.
You should check out the book “The Big Fat Surprise”.

with that though they mentioned that prior to the early 1900s there weren’t really any record keeping of what Americans ate. What they did have was old letters, essays, books, etc from folks that visited America prior to 1900 (mostly Europeans). It was pretty universally noted that there was so much game and meat in America that we “were quite lazy and careless” with the work of growing food.

it was noted that during that time period American ate almost 3 times more meat than Europeans did and that a “breakfast wasn’t a breakfast without a T-bone steak”

short version - lack of disease, lots of meat, low on carbs because it actually took work to grow them and meat was easily available.
 
tommyguns2

tommyguns2

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Dec 25, 2010
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This is a great, constructive conversation! I appreciate everyone's contributions. Whatever side of the issue people are on, good info is being shared back and forth. Good stuff!
 
Bigtex

Bigtex

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Aug 14, 2012
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You should check out the book “The Big Fat Surprise”.

with that though they mentioned that prior to the early 1900s there weren’t really any record keeping of what Americans ate. What they did have was old letters, essays, books, etc from folks that visited America prior to 1900 (mostly Europeans). It was pretty universally noted that there was so much game and meat in America that we “were quite lazy and careless” with the work of growing food.

it was noted that during that time period American ate almost 3 times more meat than Europeans did and that a “breakfast wasn’t a breakfast without a T-bone steak”

short version - lack of disease, lots of meat, low on carbs because it actually took work to grow them and meat was easily available.
The difference between early Americans and Europeans in the early 1900's is most of America (outside of the few majori cities )lived in very rural areas and worked pretty hard from sun up to sun down. They at a breakfast that provided carbohydrates and a slow digesting protein that covered their nutritional needs while working their filed, most went to be early to get up with th esun and work their fields again. I am sure most Europeans who came here only saw the bigger cites and probably did see a certain extent of lazieness. However most of the population started moving Westward during the early 1800's and by the 1900's approximately 45.9 million people, or 60.4% of the U.S. population, lived in rural areas. Both sides of my family were among the old 300 settlers to come to Texas. These settlers were granted land under a system that provided each head of household with either one sitio (about 4,428 acres) for ranching or one labor (about 177 acres) for farming, with additional land for wives, children, and slaves. These grants were given to Moses Austin and Stephen F, Austoin by Spain, to settle 300 Anglo families in Texas. The settlers began arriving in December 1821, and by the end of the summer of 1824, most of the original 300 families were in Texas. Contrairy to what you say, their mainstays included potatoes, beans, rice, breads, hardtack, soda biscuits, cornbread, cornmeal mush, and other starchy foods that provided essential energy for their physically demanding lives. They grew all of this themselves.

IN our few large cities people lived in tenements which were notoriously poor in living conditions, often consisting of just two rooms with no indoor plumbing, inadequate ventilation, and minimal natural light. Families frequently lived in cramped spaces, with some rooms housing up to 12 people. The lack of sanitation and poor hygiene led to the spread of diseases such as cholera, typhoid, smallpox, and tuberculosis, and infant mortality rates were alarmingly high. So yea, white these settlers who were our 1st ranchers and farmers ate a lot of meat, they did work hard to grow what they ate. Now here is the hard truth..... life expectancy at birth in 1900 was approximately 48 years for white Americans and 33 years for African Americans. Was it diet, hard work or perhaps lack of medicine? Penicillin was discovered in 1928.

Now in short, In short, The Big Fat Surprise ( yea I did a quick summary) argues that the war on fat was a colossal, decades-long mistake driven by bad science and institutional inertia, and that traditional high-fat foods can safely return to the center of a healthy diet. Can't disagree with what they are selling, but I know from old letters etc and reports from my direct family members that did live rural America during the 1900's, they were far from lazy, far from not knowing how to kill wild game, and far from careless in growing what they ate and did in fact, grow and eat carbohydrates. To my knowledge ALL of my direct desendants were avid hunters and farmers. Most of the old Southern menues we use today were from people who settled rural America. The early Cajuns were famous for eating what was available in the swampy areas of SouthernLouisiana. American settlers were very famous for being very hard workers living in a harsh environment and they raised and grew evernthing they ate.

Back in the warlky 2000's I knew a researcher at the Shriner's Burn institute in Galveston, Texas. His speciality was nutritional metabolism. This was back when Mauro DI Pasquale's Anabolic Diet came out. I ask this researcher what he thought the optimal diet was. He said there is not really an optimal diet and the fact that human's have existed maybe 16 million years has show that we are able to adapt to any diet. Cave men weren't carnivors they were hunters/gathers and at what they could find. My cat is a carnivor...true carnivores are animals whose diet consists almost exclusively of animal flesh, and they possess anatomical and physiological adaptations suited for this lifestyle. Their jaws move only up and down, allowing them to tear chunks of flesh, and they have sharp, pointed canine teeth and carnassial teeth designed for shearing meat. Their digestive systems are short and highly acidic, with a stomach pH of 1 or less, which helps kill pathogens in meat and allows for rapid digestion of animal protein. Ihpe this doesn't upset people who love th ecarnivor diet bu the truth is human jaws can move both vertically and horizontally, enabling the grinding of plant material, and our molars are flat and adapted for crushing fibrous foods like fruits and vegetables. Our digestive tract is longer than that of carnivores, which is more suitable for processing plant-based foods and extracting nutrients from fiber. Additionally, human stomach acidity is mildly acidic, with a pH between 4 and 5, which is more similar to herbivores than to carnivores. Yes, humans are omnivores. Which goes back to what the nutrition resrearcher explained to me. The fact that humans can eat a vairiety of food is why we have existed for 16 million years.

The bottom line is my wife eats mostly meat because of cultural preferences. So is it the meat preference that equated to life expectancy? Well lets look, as of 2023, the average life expectancy in Argentina is 77.39 years. In comparison, the average life expectancy in the United States is 81 years. So it is diet? Like i figured...experts believe it is due to a combination of socioeconomic, health, and structural factors. We all know Americans eat like shit right?

OK, I talked a whole lot about this but when you get right down to it, we do know high amounts of surars is definitely not so good for us. Eating carbohydrates is not so bad as our system is adapted to it, eating meats is not bad but certainly not a panacea as we are not as able to digest protein like a carnivor can. We can adapt. So the best bet is eat a variety of foods, invcluding meats, cut the sugars and processed shit, the human body has an amazing capability to adapt. We ARE NOT carnivors but eating lots of meat is not going to be the end of the world. We are omnivors.
 
WhiteApe

WhiteApe

Member
Nov 11, 2025
92
83
The difference between early Americans and Europeans in the early 1900's is most of America (outside of the few majori cities )lived in very rural areas and worked pretty hard from sun up to sun down. They at a breakfast that provided carbohydrates and a slow digesting protein that covered their nutritional needs while working their filed, most went to be early to get up with th esun and work their fields again. I am sure most Europeans who came here only saw the bigger cites and probably did see a certain extent of lazieness. However most of the population started moving Westward during the early 1800's and by the 1900's approximately 45.9 million people, or 60.4% of the U.S. population, lived in rural areas. Both sides of my family were among the old 300 settlers to come to Texas. These settlers were granted land under a system that provided each head of household with either one sitio (about 4,428 acres) for ranching or one labor (about 177 acres) for farming, with additional land for wives, children, and slaves. These grants were given to Moses Austin and Stephen F, Austoin by Spain, to settle 300 Anglo families in Texas. The settlers began arriving in December 1821, and by the end of the summer of 1824, most of the original 300 families were in Texas. Contrairy to what you say, their mainstays included potatoes, beans, rice, breads, hardtack, soda biscuits, cornbread, cornmeal mush, and other starchy foods that provided essential energy for their physically demanding lives. They grew all of this themselves.

IN our few large cities people lived in tenements which were notoriously poor in living conditions, often consisting of just two rooms with no indoor plumbing, inadequate ventilation, and minimal natural light. Families frequently lived in cramped spaces, with some rooms housing up to 12 people. The lack of sanitation and poor hygiene led to the spread of diseases such as cholera, typhoid, smallpox, and tuberculosis, and infant mortality rates were alarmingly high. So yea, white these settlers who were our 1st ranchers and farmers ate a lot of meat, they did work hard to grow what they ate. Now here is the hard truth..... life expectancy at birth in 1900 was approximately 48 years for white Americans and 33 years for African Americans. Was it diet, hard work or perhaps lack of medicine? Penicillin was discovered in 1928.

Now in short, In short, The Big Fat Surprise ( yea I did a quick summary) argues that the war on fat was a colossal, decades-long mistake driven by bad science and institutional inertia, and that traditional high-fat foods can safely return to the center of a healthy diet. Can't disagree with what they are selling, but I know from old letters etc and reports from my direct family members that did live rural America during the 1900's, they were far from lazy, far from not knowing how to kill wild game, and far from careless in growing what they ate and did in fact, grow and eat carbohydrates. To my knowledge ALL of my direct desendants were avid hunters and farmers. Most of the old Southern menues we use today were from people who settled rural America. The early Cajuns were famous for eating what was available in the swampy areas of SouthernLouisiana. American settlers were very famous for being very hard workers living in a harsh environment and they raised and grew evernthing they ate.

Back in the warlky 2000's I knew a researcher at the Shriner's Burn institute in Galveston, Texas. His speciality was nutritional metabolism. This was back when Mauro DI Pasquale's Anabolic Diet came out. I ask this researcher what he thought the optimal diet was. He said there is not really an optimal diet and the fact that human's have existed maybe 16 million years has show that we are able to adapt to any diet. Cave men weren't carnivors they were hunters/gathers and at what they could find. My cat is a carnivor...true carnivores are animals whose diet consists almost exclusively of animal flesh, and they possess anatomical and physiological adaptations suited for this lifestyle. Their jaws move only up and down, allowing them to tear chunks of flesh, and they have sharp, pointed canine teeth and carnassial teeth designed for shearing meat. Their digestive systems are short and highly acidic, with a stomach pH of 1 or less, which helps kill pathogens in meat and allows for rapid digestion of animal protein. Ihpe this doesn't upset people who love th ecarnivor diet bu the truth is human jaws can move both vertically and horizontally, enabling the grinding of plant material, and our molars are flat and adapted for crushing fibrous foods like fruits and vegetables. Our digestive tract is longer than that of carnivores, which is more suitable for processing plant-based foods and extracting nutrients from fiber. Additionally, human stomach acidity is mildly acidic, with a pH between 4 and 5, which is more similar to herbivores than to carnivores. Yes, humans are omnivores. Which goes back to what the nutrition resrearcher explained to me. The fact that humans can eat a vairiety of food is why we have existed for 16 million years.

The bottom line is my wife eats mostly meat because of cultural preferences. So is it the meat preference that equated to life expectancy? Well lets look, as of 2023, the average life expectancy in Argentina is 77.39 years. In comparison, the average life expectancy in the United States is 81 years. So it is diet? Like i figured...experts believe it is due to a combination of socioeconomic, health, and structural factors. We all know Americans eat like shit right?

OK, I talked a whole lot about this but when you get right down to it, we do know high amounts of surars is definitely not so good for us. Eating carbohydrates is not so bad as our system is adapted to it, eating meats is not bad but certainly not a panacea as we are not as able to digest protein like a carnivor can. We can adapt. So the best bet is eat a variety of foods, invcluding meats, cut the sugars and processed shit, the human body has an amazing capability to adapt. We ARE NOT carnivors but eating lots of meat is not going to be the end of the world. We are omnivors.
Damn dude. Here I am thinking I’m helping your argument and you go and open a can of whoop ass on me…

So what explains the lack of heart disease and obesity prior to 1900 to what we have now? Pollution? Sugar? Triglycerides?

the low fat movement seems to have no effect on heart disease. It’s correlated to the rise of obesity and diabetes.

Is your wife Argentina? It’s a country that’s on my bucket list to visit. Especially the Patagonia area. And to partake in one of those open fire beef cookouts they do.
 
Ron OG Mouse

Ron OG Mouse

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Sep 29, 2025
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What I notice when traveling to europe is people in Europe are in much better shape than here. That comes down to two things I have mentioned. Diet and exercise. We are all about getting things fast so we can get back to out thankless jobs. Fast food on every corner and everything is super sized. You will find maybe one or 2 fast food places in big cities in Europe. Here you will find more than a dozen Mc Donalds alone in Los Angeles. The streets are full of people walking there and even kids have those ebikes now so no one walks here. If you see people walking here in LA we think they are either super poor or they are trying to get some cardio. When they notice you in Europe and you are fat they automatically assume you are from thee US. This to me is all a part of our consumer lifestyle and how big corporations make money off of us. I am not a huge conspiracy theorist but I believe this 100%. I have worked middle management in corporate america for long enough to see it with my own eyes. The only thing they care about is increasing profit at any cost. No matter what they preach to their employees.
 
Bigtex

Bigtex

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Damn dude. Here I am thinking I’m helping your argument and you go and open a can of whoop ass on me…

So what explains the lack of heart disease and obesity prior to 1900 to what we have now? Pollution? Sugar? Triglycerides?

the low fat movement seems to have no effect on heart disease. It’s correlated to the rise of obesity and diabetes.

Is your wife Argentina? It’s a country that’s on my bucket list to visit. Especially the Patagonia area. And to partake in one of those open fire beef cookouts they do.
Sorry you took it that way. My comments were directed at this Carnivore diet and Europeans account of Americans being lazy people. We are not carnivore and we are actually better equipped to eat carbs. Americans are far from being lazy.

What shortened life span in the 1900's, a combination of socioeconomic, health, and structural factors. We know people in the city lived in horrible conditions. People in the rural areas live very hard lives. No electricity, little water, very hard environmental condition because they had no AC, little heat and poorly structured homes. Even now, people in more rural towns have less access to good health care,

The low fat had a huge effect because we need fat and we need protein, what we don't need is all of the high sugar, highly processed food that came about in this time period pushed by lobbyists. 70% of children’s calories now come from ultra processed foods, contributing to obesity, diabetes, and other chronic conditions. Any time we have foods that are man-made, the body doesn't recognize it so well and may cause health problems. hydrogenated vegetable oil margarine was a great example. The second part of the equation seems to be the elephant in the room few want to talk about is exercise. Since the 60's exercise has decreased dramatically. In fact, according to WHO, 60 to 85% of people in the world—from both developed and developing countries—lead sedentary lifestyles, making it one of the more serious yet insufficiently addressed public health problems of our time. Today American children are experiencing unprecedented levels of inactivity, screen use, sleep deprivation, and chronic stress. These 6 factors significantly contribute to the rise in chronic diseases and mental health challenges.

My wife is a city girl from Buenos Aires. Her grand father was in the rural areas and was a Gaucho. They ate a huge amount of meet and my wife still does. They also believe in health cures from the local witches. They still have working ranches there you can vacation there and be a Gaucho and experience the life. Not much different from a ranchers life her in Texas.

Again, my intention were not to beat up on you. Just expose people to historical facts about America. These same stories I grew up with and rember my mothers parents very well, no AC, very little water and the were poor dirt farmers who looked very rough from living a hard life in West Texas.
 
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Ron OG Mouse

Ron OG Mouse

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Agree 100% BigTex. My dad was born in 1930. At the age of 15 he moved from Missouri to the coal mines of California to be able to send money home to support his family (his dad died). Even before 15 he was working at a local dairy at the age of 12. Every generation we get a little softer.

Look at how immigrants come in the US and are successful and own small businesses. They work their asses off. Fewer and fewer Americans are willing to put in that kind of work. I see it in my work. all the "kids" or 30 somethings are gone at quitting time. Us old OGs are putting in 10-12 hours even though we are on salary. Americans are not hungry. We have never had to struggle. Not like others have. Struggle is healthy for your mind and body. It makes you stronger.
 
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