Advice for first time TRT treatment

[ttyndall]

Need advice from some of the experts on TRT treatment.
I am 76, 5’7”, and 189 lbs. Would like to lose 10 to 15 pounds while adding some muscle mass.
Stomach is too round and my biceps are 16” and holding. Not going up or down with my routine which I do change frequently.
I am going to the Doctors at the end of the week to talk TRT. He mentioned my last visit in July my testosterone level was low but did not say how much.
I have wanted to try a few things back in my 20’s and 30’s but back In the 70’s most people I knew were getting info from muscle mags (no internet at that time) and buying online and a lot from out of the country so I shied away.
I am going back this week and ask to be put on TRT since he suggested it. I am guessing he will probably suggest CYP. Since I have never used any form of enhancements I need a bunch of beginner questions answered in case I have the opportunity to suggest things to him.

I want to take it for being totally tired, trouble getting out of bed, non-motivated, ed, and to definitely help in the gym which was my only reason back in my 30’s.
I got Covid two years ago and was waiting for the hospitals to allow surgery in order to have Rotator Cuff surgery and I totally went down hill in adrenaline and motivation during that time period. Have never been like this before. These are the Personal reasons. If the Doc wants to help I want to jump on the opportunity.

Look at my questions and feel free to add anything I have left out.

1. Is CYP the best to use for someone that is just starting? I see a lot of comments on it and Enanthate.
2. What would be the suggested amount to take every 5 to 7 days? I see comments about anything from 200 to 700 but it does not always specify if that is a single shot per week.
3. Is it best to take the shot in the upper part of the leg or in the rump.
4. I see people talking about different size needles for filling the syringe and for injecting. Some even made the comment to use the same needle for both.
5. Also different size needles for where you inject.
6. If I take CYP for example, do I need to plan on taking it for the rest of my life or do you take it for x number of weeks and then stop for a few weeks and then start over.
7. I read a lot about members starting and stopping a cycle. Is a cycle used for training for show or certain supplements. Or does it pertain to taking CYP for the reasons I have listed?

Please answer in beginner terms for me. I am not a beginner in the gym but a beginner to taking testosterone supplements.
I work out at least 4 days a week and I am open to any suggestions on a diet. I take Protein powder, Creatine.
Medications:
I have Meniere’s Disease which is an inner ear disease. Because of that I take a diuretic (Hydrochlorothiazide 12.5mg once per day) , and magnesium, as well as valium whenever it acts up. Fortunately that is not real often anymore. I also take Valsartan (160mg once a day), Omeprazole, and Propranolol (20mg twice a day).
I am listing these in case an RN or Doctor reads this and can let me know if any would conflict with CYP.

I was really feeling pretty good today until I read this over. Now I am ready to start picking out my plot. I sound like a Wreck.
I apologize for this being long winded but figured someone could not give me an educated guess without proper details.

Thanks for any advice,
Ted

 

[Lizard King]

@ttyndall the thread you are looking for is right here.

 

[trentracks]

^^ huh?

 

[beefnewton]

Are you going to see a conventional doctor or a doctor at like an antiaging clinic? You might get lucky if it's the first, but you'd be better served by a clinic that actually focuses on quality of life. Anyway, some of your questions can't be answered as absolutes because we all can respond differently. It takes a long time to get TRT under control. For example, let's say you start out, say at 100mg of Test Cyp or Enth a week (both are essentially the same so it doesn't matter, but it can start arguments anyway). It's going to take a few months for your levels to stabilize. Now you can get labs, but the most important question is: How do you feel? Maybe you need to increase your dose, or maybe decrease. You're going to be chasing your tail the first few years with dose changes and labwork. But eventually you'll get it down. I've also found that as the years have gone, I have needed more Test to achieve the same blood levels. For injections themselves, I did daily subcutaneous iniections with insulin syringes for about ten years until I got so tired of lumps I finally switched to intramuscular. Depending on the doctor, they may make you come in weekly for a nurse to do your injection. If they put you on a schedule longer than a week, run away. When I started out, I had a urologist put me on Test E (in-office injections) every three weeks... total pharmacologic and therapeutic idiocy. If they let you self-inject (antiaging clinics, especially online ones, almost always do), then they should run through all of the injection stuff with you. For me, personally, I inject ventrogluteal, top of quads, and middle thighs. I don't have the mass in shoulders to do delts consistently comfortably, and my outer thighs hurt like hell every time for a few days when I do that site.

 

[ttyndall]

trentracks: If you are referring to Lizard Kings comment about the post, I had posted this on Sunday and a few hours later logged back on and it was gone. No Valium and no Wine, it just disappeared.
I sent Lizard King a message thinking I had posted something inappropriate. Monday it magically reappeared. Today he sent that message for me not knowing I had found the post. Maybe instead of TRT I need prescription glasses.

beefnewton: Thanks for the reply. I am going to my GP that I have gone to for years. I was thinking if his advice is inline with what I research it would be great if Aetna covers it. I did put the date of my visit in my phone on the wrong day. For some reason I entered this Friday and called yesterday because of the Thanksgiving Holidays and found out they are closing Friday for the Holiday and rescheduled me for the 12th of Dec. so I have a couple weeks to do some research.
From discussions in the past of other medications I don't believe he is against me doing my own injections. I was trying to gain as much knowledge as I could before I talk with him.
Can anyone give a reason for CYP or ETH for a first time user. Trying to learn the difference between them.
One thing I am not clear on from searches. If I start for example with CYP and get the dosage to what seems correct, do I take this every week forever or come off every so often?

Thanks for the help.
Ted

 

[Iron1]

Need advice from some of the experts on TRT treatment.
I am 76, 5’7”, and 189 lbs. Would like to lose 10 to 15 pounds while adding some muscle mass.
Stomach is too round and my biceps are 16” and holding. Not going up or down with my routine which I do change frequently.
I am going to the Doctors at the end of the week to talk TRT. He mentioned my last visit in July my testosterone level was low but did not say how much.
I have wanted to try a few things back in my 20’s and 30’s but back In the 70’s most people I knew were getting info from muscle mags (no internet at that time) and buying online and a lot from out of the country so I shied away.
I am going back this week and ask to be put on TRT since he suggested it. I am guessing he will probably suggest CYP. Since I have never used any form of enhancements I need a bunch of beginner questions answered in case I have the opportunity to suggest things to him.

I want to take it for being totally tired, trouble getting out of bed, non-motivated, ed, and to definitely help in the gym which was my only reason back in my 30’s.
I got Covid two years ago and was waiting for the hospitals to allow surgery in order to have Rotator Cuff surgery and I totally went down hill in adrenaline and motivation during that time period. Have never been like this before. These are the Personal reasons. If the Doc wants to help I want to jump on the opportunity.

Look at my questions and feel free to add anything I have left out.

1. Is CYP the best to use for someone that is just starting? I see a lot of comments on it and Enanthate.
2. What would be the suggested amount to take every 5 to 7 days? I see comments about anything from 200 to 700 but it does not always specify if that is a single shot per week.
3. Is it best to take the shot in the upper part of the leg or in the rump.
4. I see people talking about different size needles for filling the syringe and for injecting. Some even made the comment to use the same needle for both.
5. Also different size needles for where you inject.
6. If I take CYP for example, do I need to plan on taking it for the rest of my life or do you take it for x number of weeks and then stop for a few weeks and then start over.
7. I read a lot about members starting and stopping a cycle. Is a cycle used for training for show or certain supplements. Or does it pertain to taking CYP for the reasons I have listed?

Please answer in beginner terms for me. I am not a beginner in the gym but a beginner to taking testosterone supplements.
I work out at least 4 days a week and I am open to any suggestions on a diet. I take Protein powder, Creatine.
Medications:
I have Meniere’s Disease which is an inner ear disease. Because of that I take a diuretic (Hydrochlorothiazide 12.5mg once per day) , and magnesium, as well as valium whenever it acts up. Fortunately that is not real often anymore. I also take Valsartan (160mg once a day), Omeprazole, and Propranolol (20mg twice a day).
I am listing these in case an RN or Doctor reads this and can let me know if any would conflict with CYP.

I was really feeling pretty good today until I read this over. Now I am ready to start picking out my plot. I sound like a Wreck.
I apologize for this being long winded but figured someone could not give me an educated guess without proper details.

Thanks for any advice,
Ted

1.) Cyp and Enanthate are essentially the same, what you wind up with is largely a result of geographic location. US uses primarily Cyp, Europe uses mostly Enanthate. Stick with whatever one you're prescribed unless you're getting side effects.

2.) For TRT purposes, your dosage is dependent on whatever gets you into a normal test range. You're going to want to do blood work fairly frequently in the beginning stages to find out what dose gets you to your sweet spot. 200mg every other week is a standard starting protocol, monitor and adjust after that. I personally didn't like the peaks and valleys with that so 100mg every week was fine for me.

3.) Either or, doesn't really matter much as long as it gets into your muscle. There's lots of places to pin, shoulders, glutes, ventroglutes, upper quads, etc. Rotate sites every now and again to minimize scar tissue buildup. Just stay away from places with a lot of nerve clusters like calves and your IT band.

4.) This is again personal preference. A larger needle makes drawing faster but pinning more painful. If you want you can draw with a large one, swap in a smaller one and pin with that. I personally use a 25ga 1" pin for everything. It's a slower draw but I don't mind.

5.) Personal preference again. So long as you're getting the test into the muscle, the rest is comfort level. You may need longer or shorter needles depending on how deep you need to go to get into the muscle. For me and many others, 1" is a solid all purpose pin.

6.) TRT is for life. You need it because your body isn't producing test on it's own. Those with healthy endocrine systems who do not need TRT do not shut their balls off a few times a year to come off test so why come off test when it comes from a vial? TRT patients stay on year round and for life. Your body wants to exist in homeostasis, read up on the HPTA if you're curious about how the body regulates it's endocrine system. When you start receiving hormones from outside the body, the body shuts down it's natural production.

7.) Cycles are different than TRT. Cycles are for people who are looking to exceed the normal range of test by significant amounts. Cycling above the upper limit puts stress on the body which needs time to recover after heavy androgen use. TRT is just trying to put you into a healthy range. No need to cycle TRT specifically. Cycling is like driving your car with the gas pedal to the floor. You can do it but it's not a sustainable way to get around town. TRT is like putting along at 35mph, you can do that all day every day.

 

[ttyndall]

Iron1, Thank you. That helps clarifying a bunch.
The 25ga that you use, is that considered a smaller size needle or the larger one?
If I end up with 100 per week to start and that agrees with me, is that enough to see a difference in gym workouts?
Asking curiosity questions now.
Needles don't scare me. I would rather chew a gummy bear but had my Father, Uncle, and his Mother die from Diabetes so very use to watching people firs hand take multiple shots per day.
I donate blood fairly often. Not a record holder but have given about 6 gallons so needles don't chase me away.

I appreciate you breaking those down for me.

 

[Iron1]

Iron1, Thank you. That helps clarifying a bunch.
The 25ga that you use, is that considered a smaller size needle or the larger one?
If I end up with 100 per week to start and that agrees with me, is that enough to see a difference in gym workouts?
Asking curiosity questions now.
Needles don't scare me. I would rather chew a gummy bear but had my Father, Uncle, and his Mother die from Diabetes so very use to watching people firs hand take multiple shots per day.
I donate blood fairly often. Not a record holder but have given about 6 gallons so needles don't chase me away.

I appreciate you breaking those down for me.

That 25ga is what I would consider a medium size general purpose needle. With gauge sizes, the larger the number the smaller the diameter of the needle itself. I've seen some use 18ga to draw and 25g to pin. I've used everything from 23ga to 28ga. from 5/8" to 1.5" lengths. It's a lifetime commitment, you've got time to experiment and dial in what works. Pick up a few of each size and find out what works well for you.

As for your second question, it depends on a lot of factors. What your natural test levels are at before starting TRT and where your levels are at after. Where your workout falls in the peak/valley cycle of your injections, etc. Unlike natural production that is roughly consistent day to day, TRT has peaks and valleys. You peak when you inject and every day thereafter your levels go down until the next time you pin. A workout the day after a pin and a workout before you pin again may feel different.

If your pre-TRT levels are low enough to demand hormone therapy, then you will likely see a slight bump in gym performance once you achieve normal levels of test in your system.

You may want to check Estradiol (E2) levels when doing blood work also to see if you may need an aromatase inhibitor. Test aromatizes into estradiol and too much E2 in your system can feel like low test. Bad bedroom performance, weak lifts, water retention, etc. Like anything though, if you don't NEED it as determined through blood work, don't take it. Every drug has side effects and taking more than absolutely necessary isn't a great idea.

 

[ttyndall]

Appreciate the advice. Clarifies a bunch. I guess a lot of what I will be doing is experimenting when the time comes but feel better knowing what you described is great.

 

[genetic freak]

1. Is CYP the best to use for someone that is just starting? I see a lot of comments on it and Enanthate.
2. What would be the suggested amount to take every 5 to 7 days? I see comments about anything from 200 to 700 but it does not always specify if that is a single shot per week.
3. Is it best to take the shot in the upper part of the leg or in the rump.
4. I see people talking about different size needles for filling the syringe and for injecting. Some even made the comment to use the same needle for both.
5. Also different size needles for where you inject.
6. If I take CYP for example, do I need to plan on taking it for the rest of my life or do you take it for x number of weeks and then stop for a few weeks and then start over.
7. I read a lot about members starting and stopping a cycle. Is a cycle used for training for show or certain supplements. Or does it pertain to taking CYP for the reasons I have listed?

Iron1 pretty much answered these, but I will answer just to give you warm and fuzzy. First, if your prescribed TRT from your doctor or a TRT clinic they will answer most of this.

1. For someone who is new to TRT cypionate is probably most preferred due to only needing once a week injections. Enanthate is going to require injections twice a week.
2. The amount to take each week is individually dependent, but usually falls between 100-300 mg of test. High responders will be on the low end, while some need 300 mg of test a week just be in the upper end of normal test ranges.
3. Where to pin is also individually dependent. I like quads, but some people hate them. I will never pin a glute again, but some people it is their go to spot. I actually prefer pectoral injections or sub-cutaneous over anything else.
4. I draw with a larger gauge needle, 22g or 23g, and pin with a smaller gauge needle, 27g or 30g, and they can be anywhere from 1/2 inch, 5/8 inch or 1 inch.
5. It really depends on where I am pinning and my bodyfat level at the time. Quads are always an inch and sub-cutaneous is always 1/2 inch. Pecs and delts depend on bodyfat.
6. TRT is a lifelong commitment, otherwise it is a cycle.
7. A cycle is when you are doing more than TRT.

 

[ttyndall]

genetic freak, you have a few modifications comparing to Iron1 with needles and where to pin. Sounds like Iron1's advice about trying different size needles and places to pin is going to be the way to start out.
I know for example I had blood drawn back in July at a lab upstairs from my Doctor and hardly felt the needle. I mentioned it to the Nurse in comparison to having donated blood. She commented it was the difference in needle size the Blood Bank uses.

 

[Iron1]

I'll let GF respond but wanted to throw my two cents.

The important thing with TRT is getting enough test into your body to bring you into a normal range. How frequently you introduce test into your system, where to inject it, what the ideal level is and what hardware you choose to use are almost trivial. Some folks even use insulin syringes to inject subcutaneously but I'd say that's for more experienced people.

I've been doing the TRT thing for over 20 years already and have yet to see anyone reach a true consensus on the nuances. Everyone has their own opinion about how, where, how much and how often and sometimes those opinions change over time. However, every one of them agrees that getting your bloods in a normal range is the goal of any TRT regimen.