Coming Off

[beefnewton]

Over ten years ago, my natural Test levels had fallen to the 50's. After going through about six or seven doctors and a clinic, I gave up on "official" TRT and started learning and experimenting on my own. Over time, I did pretty well for myself. Past few months, however, I developed some pretty serious asymmetrical edema I just could not explain. I blamed it on my Rapamycin experiment. I blamed it on some accidental Primo overdosing. I blamed it on Minoxidil topical hair loss that had just absorbed too well. Rapamycin and Minoxidil are well known to cause edema... the Primo was the only other change I could try and blame. Long story short, I finally just dropped everything... and I mean everything. I'm not even taking Creatine anymore. The edema has now been fully resolved. In fact, I now realize I had been carrying around quite a bit of extra fluid I just did not know. Explains why my hydration levels always came back fine on InBody scans when I hardly ever drank anything.

So anyway, @Glycomann, this is in your wheelhouse. Random bouts of fatigue are starting to hit fairly hard, but other than that feel alright for the most part. What else can I expect? It's been two weeks since dropping everything. I didn't feel much dropping Proviron and Anavar a week prior. I was always on the fence over Primo, but I am one of those it does help with E2. Test P and Mast P, however, those were my favorites. I've got a requisition ready to go for a big spread. When would be a good time to realistically expect things to have stabilized for bloodwork after having been using year-round for 10+ years? Two months? Three months? Still don't know where the fucking edema came from... maybe a combination of what I stated, but the intensity really did seem to follow the Primo dosing.

I don't plan on staying off, unless by some chance I end up with testicles in better shape than when I started. It just feels like it's time for an attempt at a reset. I had low Test my entire life (200's/300's even as adolescent and young adult). It seemed like it took a very long time for my body to figure out what the fuck to do with "normal" levels, but it did happen. I feel best in the 800's nowadays, but I see no likelihood my natural levels will wake up to that level. I'm not even taking hCG anymore.

I am sleeping a lot better, though. Deeply and dreaming. So AAS were definitely affecting that... for a very long time.

 

[Kluso]

If everything was short esters you should be clear of everything by now. Realistically you may not fully recover to your pre AAS test levels for up to a year. I’ll be curious what @Glycomann suggests. A “reset” should do you some good considering you were running more than just test year round for a long time. Glad your edema has subsided!

 

[beefnewton]

The only long ester was the Primo E.

Crazy thing is I had become super-sensitive to sodium and alcohol, even having just one drink a week. Now I can put down salt with absolutely no edema whatsoever. I had really painted myself into a corner somehow. Curious how my borderline lipids will look in a few months, too.

 

[Kluso]

The primo being long ester may actually be a good thing. I remember back in TSC days when guys would actually pct and come off one of the benefits of using nolva was it helped with estrogen sides because estrogen usually rises before test levels will when u come off of everything. Even though estrogen levels are low the ratio of estrogen to testosterone would be off and can have gyno issues for some. I think it was skip that happened to after his first deca or tren cycle. He ran like three pcts and never recovered. Got gyno too. We also learned from him being so good with bloodwork that clomid kept his test levels elevated for a month after he stopped using it. His test would crash again and then he had gyno growth. I wonder how he’s doing these days. Can’t remember if he went on trt or what after that. I think he just decided to give it more time actually but don’t remember if he ever came back to tell us if he ever recovered.

 

[beefnewton]

I'm fine with extended time off, as long as I can adapt to a certain extent and the fatigue doesn't get out of control. For my workouts, I've come to grips that I'm never going to be particularly strong or even have much size. I got started way too late in life. I do, however, want to be lean, fit, and have some good shape, which I've done a really good job at attaining.. for a 50-year-old anyway. I've gone to total shit the past few weeks pounding down junk food. I honestly believed I had heart failure for a time and just no longer gave a fuck. Tomorrow I'll be restarting at the gym with a new type of cycle. I told my coach I never want to see a "clean" anything ever again. I fucking hate those things. Power Cleans, Clean Deadlifts, fuck them all. The Power Cleans especially are just too fucking complex for my body to figure out. Months and months been working on them, and I still can't get it through my head to drop and push my hips back. Fuck 'em. Like Snatches, I have no clue the point of me doing them. Was doing fine for a long time with the basics... don't need this fancy shit.

 

[Massive G]

What were you on cycle wise?
I wouldn't go cold turkey. Do some sub q hrt 10 to 20 mg a day.
I just recently started back after several months. I couldn't take any aas because of hrt testing. I took low doses of GH clomid and mk677 towards the end. I felt really good my test levels came back at 250.
Once you are off for a few months when you go back on you feel all the positive effects of aas.
My lower legs retain water when on juice. I am used to it.
Blood work is crucial here to see liver kidney and cardiac health.

 

[beefnewton]

What were you on cycle wise?
I wouldn't go cold turkey. Do some sub q hrt 10 to 20 mg a day.
I just recently started back after several months. I couldn't take any aas because of hrt testing. I took low doses of GH clomid and mk677 towards the end. I felt really good my test levels came back at 250.
Once you are off for a few months when you go back on you feel all the positive effects of aas.
My lower legs retain water when on juice. I am used to it.
Blood work is crucial here to see liver kidney and cardiac health.

This is what I was using daily for past few years. A few tweaks here or there, but things have gotten pretty stable and consistent over time. I get labs at least twice a year. Everything always looks pretty good aside from lipids which have held borderline for a few years (LDL higher and HDL lower.. but not out of range). Total Test comes back mid 800's, with Free Test slightly outside top end of range. Interesting that you've seen the same thing about edema in lower legs. Wonder why that is. As you can see, these are all pretty low doses. The Primo really needs to be around 25mg for E2 control (for me) but also seems to increase fluid retention. Makes no sense in the context of E2, but I've repeated this dance too many times. My Primo fuckup had me mix in 50mg of Primo in four syringes. I wasn't going to waste it or the Test and Mast mixed with it so used them spaced out over the course of a few weeks.

-30mg Test P
-30mg Mast P
-20mg Primo E
-50mg Proviron (25mg morning, 25mg afternoon)
-30mg Anavar (15mg morning, 15mg afternoon)

 

[genetic freak]

I started doing the reset a couple years ago after Glyco mentioned it. I come off from 1 November to 31 December each year. I usually have labs done the 2nd or 3rd week of December and so far, my total test levels get back to the 500's and my free test is usually around 80.

I usually experience a little bit of fatigue, loss of endurance and strength, but my body composition does not change much. All my lab work comes back pretty damn awesome, except creatinine, RBC and HCT. Those have been high my entire life and nothing I ever do changes it. Donating blood even makes it worse, as I get a rebound effect.

 

[Glycomann]

The mineralocorticoid system can get out of whack. It controls water retention. What I do is come off for 8 weeks once a year. At that point I might stay off for another month or go on a TRT dose of 100 mg/w. I'll test at week 8 and then again a month of two later. sometimes a reset is a good thing. I do it annually. i also take one or two 3-4 week breaks during the year followed by a blood donation. Now if you're really not training and trying to look your best then I just don't see a reason to enhance. In that case 100 mg/w of test or whatever gets you to 700-800 ng/dL at your trough should be enough to have you feeling decent without taxing the system. Now start throwing in this and that and the clock starts running and at some point those sides start piling up.

 

[Glycomann]

The mineralocorticoid system can get out of whack. It controls water retention. What I do is come off for 8 weeks once a year. At that point I might stay off for another month or go on a TRT dose of 100 mg/w. I'll test at week 8 and then again a month of two later. sometimes a reset is a good thing. I do it annually. i also take one or two 3-4 week breaks during the year followed by a blood donation. Now if you're really not training and trying to look your best then I just don't see a reason to enhance. In that case 100 mg/w of test or whatever gets you to 700-800 ng/dL at your trough should be enough to have you feeling decent without taxing the system. Now start throwing in this and that and the clock starts running and at some point those sides start piling up.

I should probably add that I am really speaking to the older crowd here. You young guys are more resilient but it probably would be a good idea to get in the habit.

 

[beefnewton]

I set a calendar reminder for 8/1 for labs. My memory is crap. Been off Anavar, Proviron, and Primo two weeks but Test P and Mast P not even a week. I can fall asleep sitting in a chair already. Good times ahead.

 

[beefnewton]

My god what a diminished workout...

"Inject us, Beef. We miss you. You need us."