Which bulilds muscle better, dropsets or negatives?

[macgyver]

Lots of good info I agree on but some not so much. What I have to add is that I am a firm believer in that the fatigue based (metabolic) type training is best reserved for guys who have a good foundation from basic strength training. (and it's usefulness is MUCH less for natural trainees) This is why I always advise people to pursue increases in the ability to move weight over time (while eating properly of course). Most of the people I see, dont have fully developed bases.

On here, of course there are guys with years of experience, and I myself no longer train for strength and utilize principles of TUT...etc.

But I tell most people not to waste their time doing what I do and stick to a basic structured program where increases in strength are the goal. (again, can not discount the eating part as it is equally important).

I will be the first to admit that I dont know much about enhanced training. I was natural until the last few years so I spent up to my early 40's training naturally. I dont think for a second I could have built the physique I had doing drop sets or DC style training. But I do see lots of big guys, some bigger than me, and they have built large physiques without ever doing much weight moving at all. Many are frankly weak as hell in my opinion. Dont get me wrong, strength probably is not their goal so it might work for them. But to see their size and how weak they are is almost sad (to me).

I have also seen some of those guys who blow up training like that on AAS and then stop training and come off, and see them in 6 months and they lose all their size. Maybe it is the metabolic adaptations do not stick around the same as adaptations made from heavy training?...

Anyway.....I agree on different stimulations and making one's training well rounded. BUT, I believe that for most people fatigue training should be the sprinkles on top of the sundae. Not the main course.

Once you build your physique, and / or have pretty much maxed out, you can experiment with all types of things, and frankly do very little to maintain and even ekk out some more growth. I just dont buy into the 'muscle confusion' theory. Hell I did essentially the same program for 5 years. My muscles continued to receive new stimulus because I demanded that over that time, they lift heavier and heavier loads.

 

[SAD]

@macgyver

So you confuse your muscles by adding weight or making the same weight harder (different starting positions, bands, chains, etc). That’s still a change. It’s still asking your body to do something new and hard. It’s still the same principal at the heart.

I used to think like you. It built me a really good base and whether I knew it or not, I was still using “confusion” to trigger new gains.

But now I’m older and lighter and I’ve been making new gains and building a much more functional and athletic body, without seeking out pure strength anymore.

I get your point, but hopefully you see that it’s all a sliding scale.

 

[macgyver]

@SAD

No doubt....100%. I quit training for strength 3 years ago and continue to make progress on the quality of my physique.

I guess what I was saying was 'know your audience' when addressing what builds muscle the best.

Appreciate all the great exchange of info!

 

[Bigtex]

Lots of good info I agree on but some not so much. What I have to add is that I am a firm believer in that the fatigue based (metabolic) type training is best reserved for guys who have a good foundation from basic strength training. (and it's usefulness is MUCH less for natural trainees)

Can't disagree with you but that goes beyond what the original question was, "which builds muscle better drop sets or negatives." With what you are saying I completely agree. There is a big difference in how a new lifter trains and now some one with experience trains. Some one new, keep it simple and as you pointed out, invest the time to get a good foundation fist. The body will have no problem adapting to anything a new guy does. As we put the years on, the adaptation process is much harder to achieve so all the tricks may have to be used. Just to make it clear, I am not natural and never have been, however, most everyone I have trained in my 25 years of being a strength coach (thousands) were natural.

I will be the first to admit that I dont know much about enhanced training. I was natural until the last few years so I spent up to my early 40's training naturally. I dont think for a second I could have built the physique I had doing drop sets or DC style training. But I do see lots of big guys, some bigger than me, and they have built large physiques without ever doing much weight moving at all. Many are frankly weak as hell in my opinion. Dont get me wrong, strength probably is not their goal so it might work for them. But to see their size and how weak they are is almost sad (to me).

And if you look at some of the best professionals of all time, they move some weight. Ronnie Coleman, 800 deadlift for reps 800 squats for reps, 500+ bench press for reps. This guy walked the walk. He trained like a powerlifter and a bodybuilder. Why? Because we know heavy weight stimulates myofibrillar hypertrophy. This gives you the great thick dense muscle base. But to look more like a bodybuilder you also need to hit those higher reps 8-12's to get that pump or sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Ronnie Coleman was one of the best at both worlds.

So back to a new lifter, get your form down, hit some heavy weight for 3-4 years and then start digging into the tool box and find out what you need to do to keep the body adapting to the stress you put on it and keep growing. I see so many guys at that point doing the same thing day in and day out and never get anywhere. I see quite a few guys like you that have some size but the weight they move is sad.

Drops sets are as you said, the icing on the cake. Not the main stay of a workout. Negative are the same and should not be done every day. DC style training. I can't grow at all doing DC training. But occasionally I will throw in something like this just to shock the muscle. Then go back to my high volume stuff where I hit sets of reps from 15 - 6.

Here is some of the science behind my thoughts of moving heavy weight from an article I wrote and published. Dr. Goldberg, of the University of London, noticed through his experiments on rats that even after he removed their pituitary so they could not produce GH , IGF1 or testosterone, mechanical tension placed on their muscles still cause muscular growth. He also didn’t feed them and they still grew. What he did find in the rats exercised muscle was a huge increase in what he called MGF.

This study showed that mechanical overload increases muscle hypertrophy independent of testosterone, IGF1, or GH. MGF seemed to be a very important substance because as the mechanical stress was increased so was the amount of MGF present in the exercised muscle. Not only was this true in rats but later on it was found to be the same in humans. So Dr. Goldberg concluded that mechanical load leading to an eccentric stretch,
combined with muscle contraction, leads to a rapid increase in MGF.

Through further studies Dr. Goldberg determined increases in MGF in an exercised muscle starts the local repair of muscle damage by activating the muscle stem cells, as well as activating other anabolic processes. He further stated that maximal tension development through exercise leads to greater increases in muscle hypertrophy. In other words the more mechanical load (weight) you place on a muscle when exercising the more MGF which will be released. The more MGF released through heavy weight training the better recovery as well and a greater increase in muscle growth.

So back to Ronnie Coleman, you think he was aware of this study? Absolutely not, but his trainer Brian Dobson had a clue as we spoke about why Ronnie was training like he was training many times. IMHO, Dr, Goldberg's work demonstrates why heavy weight is important. But Dobson also knew the importance of having Coleman do a more traditional higher rep work as well, isolating muscles and doing everything possible to keep stimulating growth. This is why many Mr. O's don't hit the top of their game until they have been training and competing for many years. Getting good in strength sports and physique sports doesn't happen over night.....except some of these new bathing suit divisions (men/women).

 

[macgyver]

@Bigtex

You did a great job at saying what I meant....but a lot better

I have also seen studies where Testosterone is not necessarily the biggest player in muscular growth(when looking at ranges within natural levels). Which is probably why herbal based testboosters (most based on AI's which do boost serum levels) dont really translate to any real muscular growth. Of course not discounting the role test plays at super-physiological levels.

I have been lucky given a good training response to gain strength and I believe it benefited me greatly (and still does). I have explored the last 3 years more alternate methods and even without lifting 'heavy' I have maintained my strength (while staying in the 10%bf range year round). I utilize a lot of TUT training and some unorthodox stuff like no-handed squats, and unilateral assistance exercises. I dont for a second believe I could have built my current physique doing what I do now, but I think type of training is further increasing the 'quality' of what I do have an POSSIBLY eeeking out some sarcoplasmic growth, since I never really tapped that for years.

Thanks for the replies. It is always nice to read some well thought out ideas on training. Funny....I meet guys who have been training for years and never once put any thought into why they do what they do program wise. I never understood that. I tend to analyze and maybe over-analyze....but I find it interesting to learn about something I have dedicated so much of my life to.

 

[charger69]

Can't disagree with you but that goes beyond what the original question was, "which builds muscle better drop sets or negatives." With what you are saying I completely agree. There is a big difference in how a new lifter trains and now some one with experience trains. Some one new, keep it simple and as you pointed out, invest the time to get a good foundation fist. The body will have no problem adapting to anything a new guy does. As we put the years on, the adaptation process is much harder to achieve so all the tricks may have to be used. Just to make it clear, I am not natural and never have been, however, most everyone I have trained in my 25 years of being a strength coach (thousands) were natural.



And if you look at some of the best professionals of all time, they move some weight. Ronnie Coleman, 800 deadlift for reps 800 squats for reps, 500+ bench press for reps. This guy walked the walk. He trained like a powerlifter and a bodybuilder. Why? Because we know heavy weight stimulates myofibrillar hypertrophy. This gives you the great thick dense muscle base. But to look more like a bodybuilder you also need to hit those higher reps 8-12's to get that pump or sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Ronnie Coleman was one of the best at both worlds.

So back to a new lifter, get your form down, hit some heavy weight for 3-4 years and then start digging into the tool box and find out what you need to do to keep the body adapting to the stress you put on it and keep growing. I see so many guys at that point doing the same thing day in and day out and never get anywhere. I see quite a few guys like you that have some size but the weight they move is sad.

Drops sets are as you said, the icing on the cake. Not the main stay of a workout. Negative are the same and should not be done every day. DC style training. I can't grow at all doing DC training. But occasionally I will throw in something like this just to shock the muscle. Then go back to my high volume stuff where I hit sets of reps from 15 - 6.

Here is some of the science behind my thoughts of moving heavy weight from an article I wrote and published. Dr. Goldberg, of the University of London, noticed through his experiments on rats that even after he removed their pituitary so they could not produce GH , IGF1 or testosterone, mechanical tension placed on their muscles still cause muscular growth. He also didn’t feed them and they still grew. What he did find in the rats exercised muscle was a huge increase in what he called MGF.

This study showed that mechanical overload increases muscle hypertrophy independent of testosterone, IGF1, or GH. MGF seemed to be a very important substance because as the mechanical stress was increased so was the amount of MGF present in the exercised muscle. Not only was this true in rats but later on it was found to be the same in humans. So Dr. Goldberg concluded that mechanical load leading to an eccentric stretch,
combined with muscle contraction, leads to a rapid increase in MGF.

Through further studies Dr. Goldberg determined increases in MGF in an exercised muscle starts the local repair of muscle damage by activating the muscle stem cells, as well as activating other anabolic processes. He further stated that maximal tension development through exercise leads to greater increases in muscle hypertrophy. In other words the more mechanical load (weight) you place on a muscle when exercising the more MGF which will be released. The more MGF released through heavy weight training the better recovery as well and a greater increase in muscle growth.

So back to Ronnie Coleman, you think he was aware of this study? Absolutely not, but his trainer Brian Dobson had a clue as we spoke about why Ronnie was training like he was training many times. IMHO, Dr, Goldberg's work demonstrates why heavy weight is important. But Dobson also knew the importance of having Coleman do a more traditional higher rep work as well, isolating muscles and doing everything possible to keep stimulating growth. This is why many Mr. O's don't hit the top of their game until they have been training and competing for many years. Getting good in strength sports and physique sports doesn't happen over night.....except some of these new bathing suit divisions (men/women).

Was there anything done in the tests to distinguish between mechanical tension and volume?
The heavier weight will relate to lower reps. At what point of reps does this study cover?
I am trying to get the most size possible because I compete. I have not found the perfect answer of how to yet

 

[Bigtex]

Heavier reps leads to lower reps thus, higher mechanical loading. The higher the mechanical loading the more damage in the cell and more MGF produce in the cell to repair the damage as well as the creation of satellite cells. This is very important in myofibrillar hypertrophy is stimulated. More volume gets into more of the metabolic training which is also thought to be very important specifically for bodybuilders, but there does seem to be an optimal volume even with heavy weight. This can all however, be manipulated. For those of you who may not be familiar with Louie Simmons and West Side Barbell, years ago he fashioned a conjugate training protocol based on Ukranian and Soviet training programs. In doing this Simmons combined Maximal Exertion (ME), Dynamic Exertion (DE), and a Repetitive Effort (RE)

ME
This is done by lifting weights in excess of 90% of 1RM. I always had athletes do a warm up and they hit a max lift on the core lifts, squat, bench or deadlift alternating each week between 1 - 5 reps. This method help avoid CNS burnout from using such heavy weight. Core lifts are done 1 time each week. This type of training is responsible for increasing myofibrillar hypertrophy. Remember Ronnie Coleman also trained in this range on the core lifts.

RE
Each muscle group is also worked after the ME excise by doing repetitive exertion or reps from 6-12. Failure is a must on one or more of the top 3-4 sets. This type of training of course give us that pump or sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Again, if you watch Ronnie Coleman's videos, he also included RE exercises after doing his core lift.

DE
For athletes, especially strength dynamic training is very import in developing speed. Speed developed in these exercises transfers over to force production which means you will ultimately be able to lift heavier weight.........more mechanical loading, more myofibrillar hypertrophy. I never saw any bodybuilders doing this type of training. To do this type of training you can you 40% of your max with chains or bands for 8-10 sets of 3 reps. You move the weight as fast as you can concentrically generating max force.

I used this particular type of training very successfully when I was a strength coach for football. I took kids that were not that strong and kept them very strong year round. Not only were they physically very strong, they had more the appearance of a bodybuilder with all the bulk. I had high school kids benching in the 400s - 500s and squatting in the 700-800 range every year, even during season. We never quit making gains and never got physically tired. Ahhh......high intensity training increased VO2max! This same concept obviously can be used very successfully in bodybuilding.

The fist time I heard of it was with a guy I knew named Eric Otero. He was a national champion BB back in the 80's (died of pneumonia). He did BB during the season and then train with us off season in powerlifting. He added a whole lot of dense muscle fiber over a couple of years. I also met Bryan Dobson later on, through powerlifting which led to me meeting Ronnie Coleman and Branch Warren. Branch Warren also trains with Johnny Jackson who is a powerlifter. So these guys, like Ronnie train very heavy and are very strong mass monsters. I went up to Arlington to watch them one week and spoke with Dobson about why they do what they do and it is all based off Bryan's personal involvement in powerlifting which is a hybrid conjugate program. Anthony Clark who I trained with also did pretty much the same thing. He always believed in combining heavy weights low reps and repetitive exertion for the accessory muscles to stimulate growth. Worked well for him.

So just doing heavy training will make you big and strong, adding repetitive exertion to this will make you more bulky and look more like a bodybuilder as opposed to a powerlifter. Jay Cutler hit some pretty big weight, Dorian Yates, Kali, Heath even Tom Platz.

Thanks @macgyver I can't imagine spending time in this game and not putting a lot of thought into it. Over 39 years now for me, 27 years of competition. I put everything I have into this stuff and still love it.

 

[woodswise]

Me Hulk: Hulk like dropsets ......

 

[Titan]

I have tried both but I am not sure, I am a minimalist person who prefers simplicity over variety. Knowing which is the better one would be nice so I could stick to that.

Neither... and most of what has been posted in this thread is not the most effective methods.
Listen to my Podcast post (posted in training section) of what Tom Platz says is best to build mass...

 

[luckyvenkat]

No, please don't avoid going to the gym. This the worst excuse for not going to the gym. Just ease yourself into the habit by going during the non rush timings (11-4). Do some light cardio initially. Brisk walking on the treadmill, cycling at a slow pace, cross trainer at a slow speed and low intensity. Weights section can be quite intimidating, so go there when you are comfortable with the whole idea of working out in front of 50 people.

Wear well fitted clothes. Not too tight, not too baggy. If you are a woman, it is very important to wear a well fitted correct sized supportive sports bra.

Buy a waist belt to put your locker keys and phone, invest in a good quality bluetooth earphones. Listen to music and podcasts while working out.. After one or songs, you will forget that you are being stared and judged. (Demi Lovato singing .. Whats wrong with being confident ahaanhaa! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger..!! The latest pitbull number .. Freedom? Or kygo's mixes? Pick your dope.. Take time out to make playlists in advance.

Above all, keep that spine straight. When you catch a glance of yourself in the mirror, you should see a person with a good posture. It screams confidence. Half the battle is won there!

 

[OldManStrength]

I have not read any of the other responses...

Im gona say neither by them selves... consistancy, and eating build muscel...

 

[HisAngriness]

I have not read any of the other responses...

Im gona say neither by them selves... consistancy, and eating build muscel...

The reply just before yours is by far the best one in the whole thread lol