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RAW vs. Equipped Powerlifting

hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
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I'm so tired of this argument. It's apples or oranges. Equipped is not cheating. It's a different form of competitive lifting. Just as equipped guys are strong, so are raw guys. Numbers are often misleading due to equipment. Does equipment assist the lifter to lift more? Sure, but you still have to have proper form, technique and a strong CNS. I prefer raw and that's how I roll but doesn't mean I disrespect an equipped lifter. People need to just lift and worry about supporting the sport-raw or equipped.
 
BrotherIron

BrotherIron

VIP Member
Mar 6, 2011
10,717
2,808
Hawkeye nailed it... it's the division that's killing PLing. Equipped vs raw is stupid. Just lift, be supportive, and progress. That's all that matters.
 
wesleyinman

wesleyinman

MuscleHead
Jan 9, 2014
424
169
I compete in PLing a few times per year. Don't really like it but have done it for years.

I only count Raw. I don't count a single suited lift.
 
porky little keg

porky little keg

MuscleHead
May 21, 2011
1,225
647
Hawkeye - you get it, man.

Nailed it.


It's like guys saying " I'm not all that impressed with the top fuel racer's performance. I'd be more impressed if he raced a stock mustang like I drive on the street"

In racing you'd never compare different equipment classes.

Should be the same for powerlifting.

Of course the nitrous funny car has higher numbers than the civic. Of course my multi ply squat is bigger than my raw squat.
But the same goes for both - if you want the higher number you have to be able to control the equipment it takes to get it.
Some guys like one. Some guys like the other.
Do what's fun for you.
 
hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
874
Hawkeye - you get it, man.

Nailed it.


It's like guys saying " I'm not all that impressed with the top fuel racer's performance. I'd be more impressed if he raced a stock mustang like I drive on the street"

In racing you'd never compare different equipment classes.

Should be the same for powerlifting.

Of course the nitrous funny car has higher numbers than the civic. Of course my multi ply squat is bigger than my raw squat.
But the same goes for both - if you want the higher number you have to be able to control the equipment it takes to get it.
Some guys like one. Some guys like the other.
Do what's fun for you.
A few other things I wanted to add, lifting with equipment allows more people to engage in our sport. Let's face it, we are a very small percentage compared to the fitness industry. Guys with bad shoulders are able to still do something they love and compete if need be. Cheating? Wow...give me a break. What it comes down to is we all have a bit of an ego and we all like to lift the way we like to do. Hence why do what we do. Some of us use equipment, some don't. Some of us use supplements and well some of us use "supplements". LOL. Why spend more time about splitting hairs and let's get back to what we love and we do best-LIFT.
You know I was fortunate to train when I first started with the likes of Rob Luyando, Jeremy Frey, and Bill Carpenter. Some pretty damn good lifters. Two of which could hold their own on the bench with about anyone. Rob and Bill worked and worked with me in shirt. I will be the first to admit, it's technique and getting your CNS used to hold heavy ass weight. It isn't easy. I have made respect for anyone who gets under 800-900 lbs with a shirt. I share the same respect for guys who get under the bar that lift raw and are handling 500+ lbs. What people don't get is just because you have supportive equipment, does NOT mean you are going to be some bench monster or big number lifter. Does it bump your numbers up? You bet with proper technique, one can do more with equipment. But as the analogy of racing has been used, yes, it's still racing but it's very very different in other aspects. There almost should be a ban on threads like this because it truly gets feuded about over and over. Purists will cry foul because they didn't use equipment. Equipped lifters do it for the crazy ass weight they do. Look at all the drama that got brought up. Look at Brandon Lilly. Went to Westside. Learned to be an equipped lifer. Then for several reasons, walked away and became a raw lifter. But wait, now we had drama at RUM. Some raw lifters said raw is no knee wraps and walking out a squat. Others said raw was using knee wraps and using a Monolift. See? Even the raw movement can't get it together. So, now because RUM wanted the Lillibridges, Lilly and some of the other bigger raw lifters the caved in and said they will do both and have different days. So then next there will be an argument what records will be valid and what won't. It goes on and on and on. Find a federation that appeals to you. Lift in it, embrace our sport and support the guy next to you whether he lifts in a t-shirt or a triple ply.
 
hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
874
And for those who know me, I'm a raw lifter and damn proud of it, BUT if Luyando and Carp could have taught me how to figure that shirt out, you bet your ass I would have pursued it more than I did. I'm fine with what I have accomplished and will likely stay raw....until I cannot do so and then, maybe using equipment will be my option. That's the great thing about our sport, there are options. There is no single one way to train. There are different avenues to compete and it allows lifters and competitors to showcase hard work. What were forgetting here is we are all brothers and sisters here and we have that common thread of having a goal and wanting to train for it. That's way more important than splitting hairs about who is better or what is cheating....Jesus, I think I need to go get some test, I feel the estrogen kicking in. And why the hell is ABBA "Dancing Queen" bouncing around in my head. Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!
 
C

C T J

Crossfit VIP
Jan 24, 2013
2,483
741
dude, trust me i aint ever going to get crossfit confused with an actual REAL sport.. don't get me started on crossfit..

so guys that can squat over 500 and pull over 600 and also run 5:30 miles are not athletes?

It's funny how the other side says crossfit guys are cocky and don't do much of anything
yet guys/gals on this site act elitist when it comes to training.

These guys are lifting more than a large percentage of people on this site and they also
can run 5ks, 10ks, half marathons like it's nothing.

These athletes blow the doors off most people when it comes to athletic training.
Like I've said before, it's really not that much different than NFL running back/tight end/linebacker training programs.

But somehow these guy's are not athletes? You guys have been watching too much of the dopes doing it (like any dopes that
think they are bodybuilders but ain't doing shit in your gym) and not really seeing the actual athletes doing it.

Crossfit gets regular people into working out but the top guys/gals were bodybuilders/powerlifters before doing crossfit.
They still do hypertrophy style of workouts with pyramids and also Oly. They do it all. They don't just do crossfit.
Crossfit is conditioning and extremely efficient. The rest is hypertrophy and Oly heavy weight shit.

The only real difference again, is these guys/gals can also run very fast and far. They can swim distances. They can climb a huge ass wall.
You guys think you're so much different than these athletes but the truth is, it's the same stuff with an added
anaerobic shock and a serious one at that, that I'm guessing most couldn't handle the first month.

Did 435x3 deadlift and 385x2 squat today @ 180lbs natural except for 2 prohormone cycles 7 years ago. Heaviest was 192. 5"9"
That was at lunch time.

Then I did 75 Overhead squats at 95 lbs and a 1.25 mile run tonight
in 15:24 seconds.

So I'm not an athlete but you are?
Honestly, that's hilarious.
 
Last edited:
hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
874
so guys that can squat over 500 and pull over 600 and also run 5:30 miles are not athletes?

It's funny how the other side says crossfit guys are cocky and don't do much of anything
yet guys/gals on this site act elitist when it comes to training.

These guys are lifting more than a large percentage of people on this site and they also
can run 5ks, 10ks, half marathons like it's nothing.

These athletes blow the doors off most people when it comes to athletic training.
Like I've said before, it's really not that much different than NFL running back/tight end/linebacker training programs.

But somehow these guy's are not athletes? You guys have been watching too much of the dopes doing it (like any dopes that
think they are bodybuilders but ain't doing shit in your gym) and not really seeing the actual athletes doing it.

Crossfit gets regular people into working out but the top guys/gals were bodybuilders/powerlifters before doing crossfit.
They still doing hypertrophy style of workouts with pyramids and also Oly. They do it all. They don't just do crossfit.
Crossfit is conditioning and extremely efficient. The rest is hypertrophy and Oly heavy weight shit.

The only real difference again, is these guys/gals can also run very fast and far. They can swim distances. They can climb a huge ass wall.
You guys think you're so much different than these athletes but the truth is, it's the same stuff with an added
anaerobic shock and a serious one at that, that I'm guessing most couldn't handle the first month.

Did 435x3 deadlift and 385x2 squat today @ 180lbs natural except for 2 prohormone cycles 7 years ago. Heaviest was 192. 5"9"
That was at lunch time.

Then I did 75 Overhead squats at 95 lbs and a 1.25 mile run tonight
in 15:24 seconds.

So I'm not an athlete but you guys are?


I'm ok with your rant up until your last sentence. Don't lump us all in the same boat. I believe when I posted above, I mentioned competitors. Do what the **** you want and who ****ing cares what others think. If anything, your throwing gas on a fire. Hey, I respect you for what you do. Looks like you did some work, but this is probably not the place to create a pissing contest. If you want you can post up your in the Members Log forum. For example, You mention your workout was tonight. Looks damn impressive. I couldn't run 3 miles. Probably couldn't do 75 OHP @ 95 lbs either, but I could counter that I bench 600 lbs raw and can OHP 315 lbs. for sets of 5 (not now of course because I had elbow surgery). So, we go back and forth comparing dicks. You, have your place as well as crossfitters do in the fitness industry as do body builders, strongmen and powerlifters. I have half-assed paid attention to this thread, but you quote one guy. Address him, don't throw us all under the bus. Otherwise, you just open yourself up to more scrutiny.
 
C

C T J

Crossfit VIP
Jan 24, 2013
2,483
741
I'm ok with your rant up until your last sentence. Don't lump us all in the same boat. I believe when I posted above, I mentioned competitors. Do what the **** you want and who ****ing cares what others think. If anything, your throwing gas on a fire. Hey, I respect you for what you do. Looks like you did some work, but this is probably not the place to create a pissing contest. If you want you can post up your in the Members Log forum. For example, You mention your workout was tonight. Looks damn impressive. I couldn't run 3 miles. Probably couldn't do 75 OHP @ 95 lbs either, but I could counter that I bench 600 lbs raw and can OHP 315 lbs. for sets of 5 (not now of course because I had elbow surgery). So, we go back and forth comparing dicks. You, have your place as well as crossfitters do in the fitness industry as do body builders, strongmen and powerlifters. I have half-assed paid attention to this thread, but you quote one guy. Address him, don't throw us all under the bus. Otherwise, you just open yourself up to more scrutiny.

You're right...not trying to lump everyone into the same category. I just feel like it's pointless to talk about my training here when I see a lot of people shitting on it.
That 3 miles was an edit..it was 2000 meters. I wasn't sure on the conversion and wrote 3 at the time but double checked and it's 1.25 (felt like 3!).

EDIT - fixed and addressed his post, soley. I see your point.
 
Last edited:
hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
874
You're right...not trying to lump everyone into the same category. I just feel like it's pointless to talk about my training here when I see a lot of people shitting on it.
That 3 miles was an edit..it was 2000 meters. I wasn't sure on the conversion and wrote 3 at the time but double checked and it's 1.25 (felt like 3!).

EDIT - fixed and addressed his post, soley. I see your point.

Honestly, I think you may be right and most of use are probably from the background of powerlifting, bodybuilding, and strongmen, BUT I think there are a lot of useful tools and training tips that Crossfitters utilize. I have mad respect for what you do and I love Kelly Starrett's book, "Becoming a Supple Leopard". He is essentially affiliated with Crossfit. That book changed they way I squat. And his warm ups....well he actually has convinced me warming up and other exercises help my ROM, which helps me become a more explosive powerlifter. Brother, were all really from the same cloth. Just different corners. Stick around. Advice is appreciated. Sometimes we just get too much testosterone flowing in our threads and we don't check our egos at the door. Don't let a few negative comments detour you. Lots of good brothers and sisters here.
 
gunslinger

gunslinger

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2010
1,906
1,149
Hawkeye - you get it, man.

Nailed it.


It's like guys saying " I'm not all that impressed with the top fuel racer's performance. I'd be more impressed if he raced a stock mustang like I drive on the street"

In racing you'd never compare different equipment classes.

Should be the same for powerlifting.

Of course the nitrous funny car has higher numbers than the civic. Of course my multi ply squat is bigger than my raw squat.
But the same goes for both - if you want the higher number you have to be able to control the equipment it takes to get it.
Some guys like one. Some guys like the other.
Do what's fun for you.


I don't think anyone is comparing the two. I'm just personally more impressed with what someone can do with their own body vs. what they can do with equipment. Thats all I've ever said. It does bother me when someone asks an equipped lifter what they bench and the lifter tells them some jacked up number that he can get with a multi-ply shirt and never mentions the shirt. Thats lying by omission to inflate the ego, pure and simple.
 
hawkeye

hawkeye

VIP Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,045
874
I don't think anyone is comparing the two. I'm just personally more impressed with what someone can do with their own body vs. what they can do with equipment. Thats all I've ever said. It does bother me when someone asks an equipped lifter what they bench and the lifter tells them some jacked up number that he can get with a multi-ply shirt and never mentions the shirt. Thats lying by omission to inflate the ego, pure and simple.


I get what you're saying. I mean I can bench 600 (when healthy) raw. If I took the time to learn the shirt! I may be a 900 lbs. bencher. Part of the problem is the general public looks at us all as mutants and were basically 1% of the fitness industry. The public is informed. I would say that if one was an equipped lifter, ethically it would be up to them to attempt to clarify what their 900 lbs bench means but first I highly doubt the common person would get it and most are not going to waste their time. It is what it is, but cheating I disagree with an equipped lifter being labelled that.
 
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