Equipped Vs Raw.....

[BrotherIron]

Since we致e sort of sparked this up in a couple of threads I thought we might as well begin the debate on a thread for just that, the discussion between the two. I知 not talking about shit talking, but instead a civil debate about the differences and our opinions on the matter.



I think it would be great to spark this up on TID b/c we have some serious PLers on this forum and I壇 like to hear all their opinions on the matter.

Do you think one is more difficult than the other? Are you a purist in terms of lifting raw or do you just care how much weight is moving on that bar and you値l wear whatever? Do you think the sport has gone too far in regards to the equipment used?

I値l start. I used to be a die-hard purist, but I知 beginning to realize that if I am going to enjoy this sport for many years I知 going to have to change my views and realize that some equipment will be necessary to help prolong my journey in this sport.

So what do you believe and why?

[ajdos]

Im not a pler but I always think to myself what you can lift unequipped is what you can lift period.
Im a bber so its less of an issue for me, I have an umbilical hernia so I have to wear a belt and a strap for preventative reasons.
But I digress....the raw lift to me is the true amount you can lift...I would side with the purists of your sport.

[PillarofBalance]

What aj said, plus it seems like when in the gear, its less about your leverages, or your strength, explosiveness or power and its more about technical skill... I've seen guys referred to as "bench technicians" and I think that is an accurate moniker.

When you see a guy benching more than he's deadlifting, I'm not sure how you can say that the gear isn't doing the work.

[gunslinger]

Im not a pler but I always think to myself what you can lift unequipped is what you can lift period.
Im a bber so its less of an issue for me, I have an umbilical hernia so I have to wear a belt and a strap for preventative reasons.
But I digress....the raw lift to me is the true amount you can lift...I would side with the purists of your sport.

This ^^^^


Don't go around bragging about your 600 lb dead lift or 500 pound bench if you had on a shirt and straps. I can personally add well over 100 pounds to my deads with straps. (at least i could when i did them) Not sure about bench but from the serious lifters I know its not uncommon to add 100 pounds or more to ones best bench with a bench shirt. So its not really you doing the lifting, its the equipment.

[Gstacker]

I'm just a average weight lifter so I say raw, if I was more serious an got caught up in comps and all that then maybe I'd think different but when I hear of a guy that squats 1200lbs I can't help but think "how much can he squat raw?" is it wrong for me to think like that? Idk but don't get me wrong I'm still impressed an give credit but I have no idea or concept of the lifters actual strength... Maybe if I was more serious an involved I'd have a better idea.... Soooooo to sum it up I like to see raw lifts.

[BrotherIron]

I guess I should also ask, what do you perceive "raw" to be? What is unequipped in your opinion? Is anything included in your definition of raw or unequipped?

Do you go by what the Fed's go by when you speak of raw, which would include a belt, wrist wraps, and either knee sleeves or knee wraps (depending on the Fed) or do you by something else?

[BrotherIron]

I also want to hear from those who lift equipped and their opinions on this matter.

[ajdos]

I guess I should also ask, what do you perceive "raw" to be? What is unequipped in your opinion? Is anything included in your definition of raw or unequipped?

Do you go by what the Fed's go by when you speak of raw, which would include a belt, wrist wraps, and either knee sleeves or knee wraps (depending on the Fed) or do you by something else?

From my perspective the having a bench shirt or squat suit is just not lifting the weight on your own.
A belt I can understand -just because for me its injury prevention and security Im after -one less thing to worry about when Im lifting it really never seemed to give me any thing extra on my lifts, I notice with out a belt I could lift just the same amount of weight and I could extend the set a bit longer because it wasnt impinging my diaphragm and making breathing difficult, but I would rather have it.
Straps, again as far as injuries to my forearms I had to have them to do back workouts with an injury on each forearm at different times.
But Im not a powerlifter, I would say that what a powerlifter can lay claim to is really going to be his official lifts, and if your raw thats where Im thinking its about what you can lift in a comp without any of it, not what you would do or use per se during training.

[BrotherIron]

From my perspective the having a bench shirt or squat suit is just not lifting the weight on your own.
A belt I can understand -just because for me its injury prevention and security Im after -one less thing to worry about when Im lifting it really never seemed to give me any thing extra on my lifts, I notice with out a belt I could lift just the same amount of weight and I could extend the set a bit longer because it wasnt impinging my diaphragm and making breathing difficult, but I would rather have it.
Straps, again as far as injuries to my forearms I had to have them to do back workouts with an injury on each forearm at different times.

But Im not a powerlifter, I would say that what a powerlifter can lay claim to is really going to be his official lifts, and if your raw thats where Im thinking its about what you can lift in a comp without any of it, not what you would do or use per se during training.

You said equipment that aids in injury prevention is ok by you. The original gear designed for powerlifters was created for that sole purpose. I'm not a fan of multi ply anything but that goes above and beyond adding safety for the lifter.

You also have to remember that lifters want to lift as heavy as they can for as long as possible so adding some equipment will allow them to do just that.

[porky little keg]

For me powerlifting ( and that's all I compete in, not a gym rat or bodybuilder.... 100% powerlifting)
powerlifting is all about how much iron you can move.... period.

Lots of weightlifters come to our side of the sport thinking about training muscles when it is really about training the nervous system first, muscles second. The gear does add weight to a lift there's no question about that, but it's not as though some robotic arm is making the weight move easier for you. Just like adding knee wraps for a squat above 500 might make it move easier, but it's not going to make the weight any lighter on your back. There's a lot of technique and a huge mental game with lifting in gear...... but once you get in to the trenches, and I've competed raw, single-ply and unlimited, it's comparing apples to oranges.

Raw is about moving the weight without anything helping you, I get it. But then we add wrist/knee wraps, belts, etc... and how "pure" is it ?

I hated lifting single ply. Lots of good lifters there, but once you put on a suit or a shirt you still have a suit or shirt and are still trying to maximize what it can give you. The single-ply purists compare it to the golden age with Karwoski, Coan, and Kaz, Ted Arcidi, etc killing it... but really. I've squatted in an old Z-suit like those guys used.... it's a far cry from the current Centurions and Metal brand suits.

I lift mostly multi-ply now as I am in love with moving bigger iron.... I've won my class at the state meets for the past 5 years ( since I switched to multi) won a drug-free world championship and gone on to the open classes to win up to my biggest meet to date, APF senior nationals..... from all of those meets I have yet to meet a top multi-ply lifter who wasn't brutally strong in any situation you put him in.

In the end all of us lift for the same purpose.... to be as strong as possible.... it's just how we choose to measure that against each other that is different. If there were only one way to compete the strongest guys would still be the strongest guys. Look at who is winning meets like the raw unity meet..... a lot are old multi-ply guys just out having fun or giving their bodies a break.

Look at auto racing and all of the different ways guys choose to show off their driving skill, their project build's power, or whatever.... or all the different swimming and running variants.


On a side note, if anyone REALLY thinks that they are only a canvas squat suit away from taking their 500# raw squat to a 1000# lift you are welcome to come up and train with my team. I'll even load the bar for you.

[BrotherIron]

For me powerlifting ( and that's all I compete in, not a gym rat or bodybuilder.... 100% powerlifting)
powerlifting is all about how much iron you can move.... period.

Lots of weightlifters come to our side of the sport thinking about training muscles when it is really about training the nervous system first, muscles second. The gear does add weight to a lift there's no question about that, but it's not as though some robotic arm is making the weight move easier for you. Just like adding knee wraps for a squat above 500 might make it move easier, but it's not going to make the weight any lighter on your back. There's a lot of technique and a huge mental game with lifting in gear...... but once you get in to the trenches, and I've competed raw, single-ply and unlimited, it's comparing apples to oranges.

Raw is about moving the weight without anything helping you, I get it. But then we add wrist/knee wraps, belts, etc... and how "pure" is it ?

I hated lifting single ply. Lots of good lifters there, but once you put on a suit or a shirt you still have a suit or shirt and are still trying to maximize what it can give you. The single-ply purists compare it to the golden age with Karwoski, Coan, and Kaz, Ted Arcidi, etc killing it... but really. I've squatted in an old Z-suit like those guys used.... it's a far cry from the current Centurions and Metal brand suits.

I lift mostly multi-ply now as I am in love with moving bigger iron.... I've won my class at the state meets for the past 5 years ( since I switched to multi) won a drug-free world championship and gone on to the open classes to win up to my biggest meet to date, APF senior nationals..... from all of those meets I have yet to meet a top multi-ply lifter who wasn't brutally strong in any situation you put him in.

In the end all of us lift for the same purpose.... to be as strong as possible.... it's just how we choose to measure that against each other that is different. If there were only one way to compete the strongest guys would still be the strongest guys. Look at who is winning meets like the raw unity meet..... a lot are old multi-ply guys just out having fun or giving their bodies a break.

Look at auto racing and all of the different ways guys choose to show off their driving skill, their project build's power, or whatever.... or all the different swimming and running variants.


On a side note, if anyone REALLY thinks that they are only a canvas squat suit away from taking their 500# raw squat to a 1000# lift you are welcome to come up and train with my team. I'll even load the bar for you.

Thanks for that reply. I've been wanting a PLer to reply to the thread. I knew what the answer was going to be before I asked in terms of how a bber would answer it. I wanted to get the perspective of a PLer and a competing PLer if possible.

I talked to my wifes PLing team yesterday, and at the end of the day it's about how much weight you can move in the shortest distance possible while meeting the criteria of the Federation you're competing in. And if you think that equipped lifters are weak without their equipment, you're sorely mistaken. I watched a 58yo man squat 675lbs to depth (and he didn't have a very wide stance) with only a belt and knee wraps. It was sick. I'll be doing a backflip when I hit that.

[Fish77]

They are different sports, IMO. Apples to oranges is right. Like Olympic wrestling and mma. One is not better then the other, just different rules and skills. Mma gets more press cause the hits are hard and fast. Assisted puts up big numbers, so more press. While some of us still appreciate the other way.

To each their own.

[ajdos]

You said equipment that aids in injury prevention is ok by you. The original gear designed for powerlifters was created for that sole purpose. I'm not a fan of multi ply anything but that goes above and beyond adding safety for the lifter.

You also have to remember that lifters want to lift as heavy as they can for as long as possible so adding some equipment will allow them to do just that.

Im not against it or anything Im not as familiar with the rules of the Fed, but from my limited perspective about that world it seems like anything to give an extra advantage vs prevention of injury would be ruled out from a purist perspective.
Again hard for me to have a good judgement because I do not powerlift.
675 from a 58 yr old is just insane, and with only a belt? damn!
I was wondering, are people able to use a MP3 or anything when they lift?

[Halo]

For me it's about moving weight and I am competing against myself every time I go in the gym. I haven't lifted with a shirt or suit yet but I look forward to it.

[69nites]

For me if I can't grip it and pick it up 100% unequiped I don't want to.