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just wondering if anybody had used proviron/nolvadex and clen in a cut stack? And, I have read that the proviron and nolvadex are dosed at 20-25mg a day for it...could that dose be cut and half and be effective over 4-5 weeks? Wondering if adding clen to the mix would be wise??? Any ideas or experience to share would be helpful.
I've used nolva to try and balance some excess estrogen, 20mg/day... and that was not an uncomfortable dose hardly noticeable for me, though I have a LOT of extra estrogen and am a weak responder to androgens... are you thinking half dose for each so you can stack them without killing too much e?
I hate clen so no opinions there
Be VERY careful with proviron. It's 100% androgen and has no anabolic properties at all. I know women have used it before, but then again women have used tren. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Nolva shouldn't be an issue at all. It's actually designed for use in both genders to control to growth of breast tissue in treatment for breast cancer. A lot of female competitors use it to cut estro related water and some fat near competition time. Most start at 10mg.
Just a caveat on that stack. Usually the context is for competition where you are cutting into a certain day and expect to rebound when you come off. And as noted, proviron is almost exclusively an androgenic steroid so expect typical androgenic sides during that time.
I would ask what is your purpose? As I mentioned this is not stack that is geared towards maintainable results but rather a specific cut and a rebound.
Things to consider.
Nolva will stimulate Estrogen production although while blocking it, Tapering nolva way down for a few weeks when coming off might not be a bad idea to since estro-rebound from nolva can be bad.
Proviron won't be any worse than Stanozolol as far as androgenic sides realy, very low dosing is still best though.
Last edited by SHINE; 01-24-2012 at 11:01 AM.
Yes, sassy this is for a competition cut...and that was the reason. I would never consider those for any other purpose. I am not as big as some of the other gals, so I must come in at a very respectable condition..and these could make that crucial difference
Last edited by shan; 01-24-2012 at 05:38 PM.
Okiedokie. Generally the recommendation is 1 nolva and 1 proviron, each split in half, half in the AM & half in the PM. (I forget which standard tab size is which but they are 20mg & 25 mg.) As Shine mentions, save some for the taper as well, after your target date. The general guidance is keep it shorter than 8 weeks. Include acidophilus to help avoid yeast infections. Because this is also affecting your menstrual cycle, running on a 28 day timeframe, generally prefer to go > 4 weeks so your system has more than 1 cycle to figure out what is going on w/ your hormone levels.Originally Posted by shan
The biggest issue I raise w/ any cycle is the expectation of it, so with a target date, this is appropriate.
Other than more liver stress, is there any reason to not use clen with thoae 2? And thanks, I value the input. Also, is there any particular things to look out for with that kind of stack....and what kind of rebound issues would I be looking at?
No issue w/ the clen. The "rebound" is part of the overall post-show rebound. W/ all aspects of your prep, I'd say simply ease back out of your prep protocol into a maintenance protocol (i.e. slowly add back in carbs & fats, getting cals back up to maintenance). Same w/ the drugs - small incremental changes back to "normal". E.g. post show, split your doses in half for 3 days, then in half again for 3 days, repeat until nothing left. The rebound is mostly in water retention. I typically gain back about 5-8% bodyfat by the end of a week or two post show just by the changes back to normal. This doesn't mean I gained back that much fat in a week - but rather just adding back in the water & letting your body relax from the stress of the whole process. (Also note that as a bodybuilder, I'm cutting more aggressively than Figure, etc. so the change is more extreme.) I'd also be judicious in your post-show celebration / shit food loading. Do it for like the night of your competition & the next at max. After that get back to clean. If you're loading sugar, sodium, fats, carbs right away, you will blow up. Easily expect 10-20 lb in water weight gain within a week, most of it from your thighs down to your ankles. THAT SUCKS ASS.
Last edited by sassy69; 01-25-2012 at 07:07 PM.
Here's an article I found several years ago that goes into everything that is happening during competition prep & the following quest for homeostasis post-show:
Post-Competition Perils: Hyperphagia, Adipose Overshoot, & Dysphoria
by
J.D. Haltigan
It is common for bodybuilders and physique competitors (note from Sassy69: not just AAS users & not just BB competitors) to engage in a period of dysregulated behavior characterized by repetitive, uncontrollable hyperphagia and bingeing in the days immediately subsequent to competition or to their lowest achieved adipostatic level. While the eating behavior is by and large the central component of this ‘post-competition syndrome’, it is part of a larger phenotype which includes both ‘bodyfat overshoot’ (Dulloo et al., 1997) and a general dysphoria characterized by a multiplex of feeling/behavioral states including emotional and/or mental discomfort, restlessness, malaise, depression, and sleep fractionation.
Extending my work on dynamical systems (and more generally adaptation at lowered adipostatic states), this article makes a specific contribution to discussing post-competition issues. It highlights a subtle paradox, in that the worst symptoms of severely reduced adipostatic states are not necessarily present during such a time, but rather on the slippery slope out of such a state.
It can be argued that most of the bodybuilding community, whilst aware of the symptoms noted above during repeated competition cycles, are unaware that they are in fact physiologically rooted adaptive processes (from a purely physiological standpoint). In addition, the claim is advanced here that training and supplementation post-competition may be even more important than training pre-competition, since it is during this post-competition period that significant declines in physique and mental resilience occur beyond levels established before pre-competition preparation was fully set in motion.
Originally noted by Keys et al. (1950) in the infamous Minnesota Starvation experiment and subsequently corroborated by the Dulloo lab in a number of papers that re-analyzed the original Minnesota data; there was a marked tendency for individuals who underwent the starvation period (or a protracted period of hypoenergetic caloric intake) to engage in voracious hyperphagia and demonstrate significant body fat gain following release from the starvation requirements. Indeed, because the body-fat gain following starvation exceeded the absolute adipostatic levels prior to the deficit (starvation) period, Key’s et al. (1950) termed the phenomenon ‘post-starvation obesity,’ while the Dulloo group (Dulloo, et al., 1997) termed the phenomenon “post-starvation hyperphagia and body-fat overshoot.”
If we consider the bodybuilder or fitness enthusiast’s ‘pre-contest’ dieting akin to that of the ‘starvation period’ of Key’s et al. (albeit with some notable dissimilarities including resistance training and extensive supplementation use), we can begin to understand the ‘post-contest’ period, and the normative metabolic and behavioral-psychological reactions that often cause great distress for the passionate bodybuilder (natural or not) or fitness enthusiast.
An account retold from one of Keys’ original participants in the Minnesota experiment reflect what has been related to me time and again in numerous private messages; and as I have also observed in various individuals who I have trained with (both male and female), and echo reports of ‘post-competition binges’:
Although they were warned to be careful not to overeat on d 1 [following the experiment], they were free to eat as they wished. H.S. remembered being taken to the hospital to have his stomach pumped because he,“just simply overdid” (Kalm & Semba, 1997, p.1351).
As a group, the Minnesota subjects as well as others who have undergone significant body weight reductions during extended periods of energetic deficit (cf. St. Pierre et al., 1996), show persistence in both appetite and hyperphagia long after refeeding commences. This combination of both increased appetite and subsequent hyperphagia was termed ‘integrated hyperphagia’ by Dulloo et al. (1997). Once again, persistence in binge behavior and the associated mental dysphoria with losing the contest physique is a common phenotype of bodybuilders and fitness (figure) competitors. One such person indicated to me they put on substantial fat (past pre-competition prep) following competition but also suffered from notable socioemotional disturbances, including, but not limited to, depression and social anxiety; which ultimately lead to the inability to maintain a romantic relationship.
Taken together, the elegant work of Keys, Dulloo and colleagues, should serve the training community in the sense that following bouts of contest dieting, counterregulatory processes will soon ensue, leading to behavior which can seriously threaten maintenance of even pre-competition dieting conditioning levels. As such, the post-competition period becomes a very critical time when, as I argue, training and supplementation usage must be dialed in. Before I offer a few brief, flexible recommendations, there are a few extremely important details that must be noted with regard to the re-analysis of the Minnesota starvation data by the Dulloo group.
In re-analyzing the Minnesota starvation data, Dulloo’s group found at least two important variables in the characterization of post-starvation integrated hyperphagia. The first being that even in spite of increased dietary induced thermogenesis (DIT) - due to the sympathomimetic actions of excessive carbohydrate loading (i.e., bingeing) - there remains a specific metabolic component favoring fat storage (1990). Thus, even in the presence of increased DIT (due to metabolic normalization as weight is gained), adipose tissue can be laid down simultaneously. Dulloo and Girardier (1990) noted that the metabolic component represented a net 15% reduction in energy expenditure during refeeding.
Dulloo (1997) further notes that the phenomenon of fat increase occurring more rapidly than that of active tissues has been noted since the “turn of the century in adults recovering body weight after diseases or famines” (p. 30), and cites both Jamin & Muller (1931) and Kornfeld & Schuller (1931). While a more comprehensive overview of their models, including that of the P-ratio (Dulloo & Jacquet, 1999) are outside the scope of this article, the key point of the foregoing discussion is that fat overshooting is in large part determined by delayed protein repletion (loss of lean-tissue), which in turn results from a suppression of thermogenesis favoring the ‘replenishment’ of adipose reserves (Dulloo, 1997).
The second variable involves the predictive ability of both adipose and lean tissue loss to promote post-starvation integrated hyperphagia. In an elegant set of regressions, Dulloo et al., (1997) showed that while adipose loss was the strongest predictor of integrated hyperphagia, lean tissue loss also added unique variance (albeit of small magnitude). These correlations were still present even after controlling for degree of prior energy deficit.
Considering this, it is quite clear that the post-competition phenomenon of integrated hyperphagia is a relatively ubiquitous phenomenon among those who have lost substantial body mass. However, the component of mental dysphoria is an addition this author has contributed independently (as a result of both personal and vicarious experience), and we can conceptualize both integrated hyperphagia and mental dysphoria as the ‘post-competition syndrome’. I have written previously on psychoneuroendocrinological contributions to the post-competition phenotype (cf. Adipose Reduction and Bodyfat Setpoint: A Dev. Reg. Model) and will elaborate on this component of the post-competition syndrome in future work. Suffice it to say that included in the dysphoric component are depression, restlessness, fatigue, sleeplessness, and most importantly, social withdrawal. So, from a training standpoint, how can the trainee deal with the ‘post-competition syndrome’?
It would seem that a simple understanding of the post-competition period, as presented here, will go a long way to treating this period of training more appropriately. More specifically there are at least four specific areas where trainees and competitors can directly address the ‘post-competition syndrome’:
1) Psychological: While acute bingeing post-competition is of the involuntary subtype, it is argued that subsequent bingeing (still part of the integrated hyperphagia matrix) is more voluntary in nature and psychologically triggered. Psychological triggers are more likely to become effective at triggering binge patterns in light of the underlying post-starvation vulnerability (cf. Adipose Reduction and Bodyfat Setpoint: A Dev. Reg. Model). In addition, individual differences in affect regulation (socioemotional adaptation, attachment) may also play a key role (for comparative evidence see Hancock, Menard, & Olmstead, 2005). Awareness of psychological cues that trigger bingeing and insuring that you take proactive steps to re-engage - in adaptive, positive social situations (e.g., going out, interacting with others) - may short-circuit the feed-forward loop of ‘social isolation-bingeing’.
2) Training: A least two prominent considerations come to mind. First, and of obvious import; the more lean mass retained during the dieting period, the more potential for reductions (albeit subtle) in the experience of integrated hyperphagia. It would seem that a strong focus on time under tension (TUT) should be a core component of both the pre and post competition periods. Second, cardio should be maintained or even increased during the post-competition period to both compensate for involuntary bingeing as well as to perhaps inhibit the metabolic component that appears designed to facilitate fat storage (a more detailed discussion will be presented in a separate paper). Finally, an immediate change in training protocol is advised, as this will ‘freshen’ up the routine and prevent needless iterations of mental fatigue of having to perform the same routine - which can lead to an avoidance of the gym (isolation) and subsequent bingeing as discussed above.
3) ‘Binge’ Nutrition: It may be profitable to create a ‘fixed’ binge pattern such that, even during times of involuntary binges, there are only certain foodstuffs that you are allowed (provided they enable the quiescence of the integrated hyperphagia and psychological craving). For example, during times of integrated hyperphagia, this author has been able to fix his foodstuffs, allowing fat-free frozen yogurt and specifically (only) butter popped corn cakes (which contain no HFCS). This may be one factor that has attenuated the consequence of integrated hyperphagia. Often we hear of binges on candy, chocolate, pizza and other calorie dense high-fat, high-carbohydrate foods, which most certainly will elevate the energy intake.
4) Thermogenic Supplementation: A few brief, non-exhaustive comments here. Thermogenic supplementation, such as the EC(A) stack (and others) should be continued, possibly increased during this phase (consider 40mg ephedrine/day rather than 20mg). The reasoning is the same mentioned above in regards to cardio - the potential to short-circuit the metabolic component favoring fat storage in spite of increased DIT. Of course, abuse of any thermogenic during the dieting phase will reduce any gains one might make by increasing the dosage during the post-competition phase. That said much of the diet phase can proceed without the use of thermogenic aids, simply by maintaining a modest caloric deficit; restricting intake and increased energy expenditure.
While I am torn on advocating the use of nicotine in this context, I will indicate that its continued usage through both dieting and post-rebound phases may exert favorable body composition changes and maintenance. One study (Schwid, Hirvonen, & Keesey, 1992), albeit in rats, is particularly relevant as it was framed in a regulatory perspective and it showed that nicotine-reated rats were able to reduce their setpoint; but also that they showed the same hyperphagic phenotype as control rats when they were starved beyond this new ‘setpoint.’ However, rather than binge back up to control levels of absolute fat, these rats overshot their new ‘reduced setpoint’ briefly, eventually returning to this new ‘setpoint’ which was lower than their control (pre-nicotine) values. This provides comparative evidence for the hyperphagic phenotype in humans as well as the energy conserving adjustments both during food restriction which spill over into the refeeding period. I would be remiss not to indicate that one must obviously reflect on the method of nicotine administration as well as the noted risks to its usage.
Here I have discussed the normative phenomenon of integrated hyperphagia observed in individuals who have experienced significant and extended periods of caloric deficit resulting in a substantial loss of bodyweight. I then applied this portrait to that of the body-builder or figure competitor following the competition period. I then offered more specific details regarding variability in integrated hyperphagia and created a new term, specific to this broad sport, called the ‘post-competition syndrome.’ Finally, I have offered some brief recommendations regarding training, hyperphagic nutrition, and post-competition thermogenic supplementation. I have intentionally made an attempt to keep this contribution less ‘academic’ in tone while still preserving a highly academic backdrop (i.e., Keys et al., and Dulloo et al.). For the more scientifically inclined, specific discussions of the material within will continue both in future articles as well as in the dynamical thread over at Avant where relevant mechanisms will be more fully elucidated and theorized.
References
References 1. Dulloo, A. G. (1997). Human pattern of food intake and fuel-partitioning during weight recovery after starvation: A theory of autoregulation of body composition. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, 56, 25-40.
2. Dulloo, A. G., & Girardier, L. (1990). Adaptive changes in energy expenditure during refeeding following low-calorie intake: Evidence for a specific metabolic component favoring fat storage. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 52, 415-420.
3. Dulloo, A. G., & Jacquet, J. (2001). An adipose-specific control of thermogenesis in body weight regulation. International Journal of Obesity, 25, S22-S29.
4. Dulloo, A. G., & Jacquet, J. (1999). The control of partitioning between protein and fat during human starvation: Its internal determinants and biological significance. British Journal of Nutrition, 82, 339-356.
5. Dulloo, A. G., Jacquet, J., & Girardier, L. (1997). Post-starvation hyperphagia and body fat overshooting in humans: A role for feedback signals from lean and fat tissues. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 65, 717-723.
6. Dulloo, A. G., Jacquet, J., & Girardier, L. (1996). Autoregulation of body composition during weight recovery in human: The Minnesota experiment revisited. International Journal of Obesity, 20, 393-405.
7. Hancock, S. D., Menard, J. L., & Olmstead, M. C. (2005). Variations in maternal care influence vulnerability to stress-induced binge eating in female rats. Physiology & Behavior, 85, 430-439.
8. Jamin, F. & Muller, E. (1931). Specific weight of the living man with clinical applications for recovery of body weight. Munchener Medizinishche Wochenshrift, 51, 349-362.
9. Kalm, L. M., & Semba, R. D. (2005). They starved so that others could be better fed: Remembering Ancel Keys and the Minnesota experiment. Journal of Nutrition, 135, 1347-1352.
10. Keys, A., Brozek, J., Henschel, A, Mickelson, O., & Taylor, H. L. (1950). The biology of human starvation: 2 volumes. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
11. Kornfeld, W. & Schuller, H. (1931). Pattern of lean tissue deposition in free-living children recovering from tuberculosis. Zeitschrift fur Kinder und Jugendpsychiatrie, 51, 349-362.
12. Schwid, S. R., Hirvonen, M. D., & Keesey, R. E. (1992). Nicotine effects on body weight: A regulatory perspective. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 55, 878-84.
13. St. Pierre, S., Roy, B., & Tremblay, A. (1996). A case study on energy balance during an expedition through Greenland. International Journal of Obesity, 20, 493-495.
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Oh lord....cankles...haven't had those since post csection...they do suck ass LOL. I am pretty good about eating clean all the time" so will definitely keep it in check after...I have plenty of time to prep! I'm still bulking LOL
Most first time competitors, even if they've heard about post show bloat and plan their post-show diet and everything, still manage to experience at least once. My first show, the guy I was dating had his grandfather pass away 3 days before my show. We had to drive across Florida in August (my poor car's A/C unit!), and I was depleted as **** already. I was totally relying on him to drive and stay w/ me. Well, since he only had his mom in the family, it was sort of on him, as the Man of the House, to take care of funeral arrangements, so obviously he didint' make it to the show. I did reasonably well, but all the things I was looking forward to enjoying w/ him just didn't happen. It also followed that we broke up immediately afterwards. By the time I got home I was ready to push my trainer out of the car, and I was just beyond pissed. Nothing like what I planned for. Before I even got to my house, I stopped off at the grocery store & wandered around picking up every item of junk food I ever wanted to try. $60 later and 3 days of basically lining up all the different types of junk food and just rotating thru them, I gained 18 lb. (I had lost 18 lb over the course of 4 months to compete...) And I swear it was all in my legs. It HURT to push on them. The looked like water balloons and I couldn't wear socks because it felt like my foot was getting strangled from the water retention.
So... needless to say, I am very diligent about my post show diet & generally all my expectations around post-show celebration. I make it all about hanging out w/ friends and enjoying a good steak, and maybe a margarita, and NOT about the junk food I' haven't been able to eat for the last 4-6 months. Takes A LOT of the pressure off what you do after the show. The less you focus on eating, the easier it is.
hey ladies heres a cycle i had on my friend shes competing at the usa in july
25 proviron daily for 12 weeks
15-20mg var daily 12 weeks
200mg primo 12 weeks
20mg winny tabs 8 weeks
last 4 weeks half letro
Why letro and why proviron for 12 weeks?
Also please recommend to include acidophilus to help avoid yeast infections and Nizoral hair shampoo to help w/ the hairloss she gonna experience w/ the primo + winny.
As always Great info Sasser! and yes ladies it's well worth your time to get some Nizoral shampoo but make sure it has Ketoconanzole as the active ingredient!
definitely helps to stop inflammation and stop hair loss. This is but one small study , do a search there are a lot of studies showing it's effects to help save your hair.
Ketoconazole Shampoo: Effect of Long-Term Use in Androgenic Alopecia
Last edited by SHINE; 01-26-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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